Breeding

[Peggy G]

I also want to add...

..to something else you inquired about. If nobody bought from BYBs the BYBs would stop breeding. End of problem after first unsold litter. Same goes for pet store puppies which are products of puppy mills.

 

[Boxer_21]

Originally posted by mdowling
If you don't show and don't test, how do you know you have two good dogs?

I'm not against testing your animals for medical problems before breeding. But once the test are done which aren't that lengthy or expensive that would require someone to charge that much for a puppy. If a breeder has the tests done on a bitch, and she has five litters in her life, with an average six pups per litter, charging $900 a puppy, that's $27,000. I know it doesn't cost near this to test a dog. Like you said testing for HD is a simple X-Ray. There's no reason to charge 900-2000 dollars for a dog. Whatever money the breeder spends on testing is made up in the first litter. I think a lot of that is markup because they're selling a "show quality dog". I don't think you're dog needs to be show quality in order to be bred. I also think these breeders also make a good amount of money, and when they say they don't make anything or lose money by breeding a dog is hard to buy.

How can you make that statement regarding how expensive and lengthy the testing is?? Have you done all of the testing on any of your dogs?? I don't think so. I can't fathom how lengthy or how expensive it is as I've never had any of my dogs tested. I do know that are SEVERAL tests included not just the "simple X-Ray".

I may be wrong when I say this, but do some breeders retest their dog before each litter?? I know I've heard that before, just not sure where or if it's true or not.

The charges also come from any and all prenatal care for bitch as well as the care throughout the pregnancy. Pregnant bitches get special food and in some cases they may even need medical treatment for whatever reason. There is also the stud fee for the TESTED male who was bred to your bitch. Also, the puppies could become ill/injured and need medical treatment?? I'm sure there are other costs that add up that I can't name because to be honest with you, I've never had a litter so I don't all there is to know about it. I'm sure someone else will make mention of more.

When I paid what I paid for my Riley I new his parents had been tested, I knew that they both had good blood lines as well as good temperments. I also accepted and did not mind paying for Sabrina's (Riley's mom) extra care while she was pregnant and before she had gotten pregnant. I also had no problem knowing that I'm paying for Alex's (Riley's dad) stud fee.

I'm sure show dogs play in the park too. My point is a dog shouldn't have to have a fifth generation pedigree and cost a small fortune to be considered a good dog, and a good family pet.

Responsible breed their dogs to better the breed. By breeding champions with champions you're helping to create a better line of dogs. I would much rather pay a small fortune for a dog that I know the history of as apposed to some dog who's had no testing or any proof to show they're clear of diseases and healthy.

 

[Boxer_21]

Originally posted by macca
If the breeders out there are so worried about over population why are they still breeding?

To make the breed better and healthier.

I also have horses and I know that you can pick up a horse for $250 and it can beat even the most expensive horses, I also know you can pay top dollar and it can drop dead on you.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. However, when the proper testing IS done and completed, the odds of them "just dropping dead" is tremendously lower than that of one that has not been tested.

I will put in the contrat about taking the pups back as I do not want to see any going to bad homes, I have turned down many potential horse owners after background checks.

Good for you. I would make that same condition in my contract if I were to breed. I would not want any dog/animal that I've created to end up in a bad home or in a shelter. Further more, I would also complete ALL testing to make sure both sire and dam were up to breed standard as well as clear of all possible diseases andother heriditary conditions.

Are you saying that because my dog does not have a peice of paper (her parents are reg) that she is going to have more problems than your reg dogs??

No, but if SHE comes from a BYBer then the odds of her having more problems is significantly higher than that of a good breeders tested dogs.

 

[MollyMoose]

Perhaps this question has been asked before, but I just found this thread:

Do you have deposits for all of the potential puppies? If not, you will probably find that you wont sell even half of the pupps that you think you will.

Deposits are a must because they mean the owners are dead serious about getting a puppy from you.

The way I look at it is like this: there are tons of reputable breeders whose LIVES revolve around breeding excellent quality Boxers (or any pure bred dog). Why not let them do the breeding work? There is no shortage of quality pure bred boxers in the world. Why ruin the breed by breeding puppies that are questionable at best? If you want to help the breed of Boxer, buy from a reputable breeder or get a rescue and NEUTER/SPAY it.

 

[kassa]

There's the little matter of cesaerean sections and the bitch's death, too. I've experienced this and it is horrifying.

Nature is sometimes cruel. Every decision to breed carries with it a risk of complication and death -- for puppies AND dam.

Just 3 years ago I was presented with 9 living puppies, a dead dam, and a $2000 vet bill -- they do expect you to pay even if the patient dies. (A $200 necropsy and a $100 cremation bill followed close behind.) And then there was $500 in milk replacer (fortunately that was just for the four pups I had in-house -- 5 found a foster dam for 3 weeks). Another few hundred for sundries -- you wouldn't believe the sundries required for handrearing 9 puppies. 5-6 loads of laundry a day adds up quickly as well. Not to mention feedings every 4 hours that take 2 hours to complete.

It's not all puppy breath and little warm wriggly bodies and checks to cash.

 

[Astoreen]

Originally posted by mdowling

I'm not against testing your animals for medical problems before breeding. But once the test are done which aren't that lengthy or expensive that would require someone to charge that much for a puppy. If a breeder has the tests done on a bitch, and she has five litters in her life, with an average six pups per litter, charging $900 a puppy, that's $27,000. I know it doesn't cost near this to test a dog. Like you said testing for HD is a simple X-Ray. There's no reason to charge 900-2000 dollars for a dog. Whatever money the breeder spends on testing is made up in the first litter. I think a lot of that is markup because they're selling a "show quality dog". I don't think you're dog needs to be show quality in order to be bred. I also think these breeders also make a good amount of money, and when they say they don't make anything or lose money by breeding a dog is hard to buy.


Clearly, you don't know anything about breeding or the costs involved. Having your dog health tested is not the only piece involved with a good sound breeding program. I won't break it down for you but these are costs that these breeders incur for a good, quality litter of puppies. Tests; travelling; purchase of frozen semen, if using this route; tail docks; dew claws removed; vet checks for puppies; vaccinations; microchips or tattoos, done more and more by the breeders and then transferred to the new owner; emergency care for the pregnant bitch or the puppies, if needed; food; kennel supplies; etc. etc. The costs are quickly adding up and if you had done your research or had any idea what reputable breeders put into breeding sound dogs, it would be abundantly clear. Also, reputable breeders, at least the ones I know, DO NOT allow their bitches to have 5 litters of puppies in their lifetime so that calculation is wrong.

On to the testing for HD. You usually have to sedate your dog and this costs money since we all know not to use ACE on our boxers. You use something else, usually more expensive, which requires an IV and other things and then it quickly adds up. The cost of the x-ray figures in, then sending it off with a nominal fee to have it reviewed by a specialist. What about all of the time and effort on the breeders part to make certain that all of this is taken care. This is only for the case of ruling out HD. You want the heart certified, be prepared to spend around $500 or more for the cardiologist to give your sire or dam the all clear. Then you're on to other testing and such.

I find it very disturbing that you so quickly toss aside the tireless work that goes into producing a quality litter of puppies, one that a breeder can fill confident in giving a health guarantee to for the entire life of the dog. Your disregard and lack of respect for the work that they do to better the breed and insure healthy animals is nauseating.

 

[mdowling]

Originally posted by Astoreen
Originally posted by mdowling

I'm not against testing your animals for medical problems before breeding. But once the test are done which aren't that lengthy or expensive that would require someone to charge that much for a puppy. If a breeder has the tests done on a bitch, and she has five litters in her life, with an average six pups per litter, charging $900 a puppy, that's $27,000. I know it doesn't cost near this to test a dog. Like you said testing for HD is a simple X-Ray. There's no reason to charge 900-2000 dollars for a dog. Whatever money the breeder spends on testing is made up in the first litter. I think a lot of that is markup because they're selling a "show quality dog". I don't think you're dog needs to be show quality in order to be bred. I also think these breeders also make a good amount of money, and when they say they don't make anything or lose money by breeding a dog is hard to buy.


Clearly, you don't know anything about breeding or the costs involved. Having your dog health tested is not the only piece involved with a good sound breeding program. I won't break it down for you but these are costs that these breeders incur for a good, quality litter of puppies. Tests; travelling; purchase of frozen semen, if using this route; tail docks; dew claws removed; vet checks for puppies; vaccinations; microchips or tattoos, done more and more by the breeders and then transferred to the new owner; emergency care for the pregnant bitch or the puppies, if needed; food; kennel supplies; etc. etc. The costs are quickly adding up and if you had done your research or had any idea what reputable breeders put into breeding sound dogs, it would be abundantly clear. Also, reputable breeders, at least the ones I know, DO NOT allow their bitches to have 5 litters of puppies in their lifetime so that calculation is wrong.

On to the testing for HD. You usually have to sedate your dog and this costs money since we all know not to use ACE on our boxers. You use something else, usually more expensive, which requires an IV and other things and then it quickly adds up. The cost of the x-ray figures in, then sending it off with a nominal fee to have it reviewed by a specialist. What about all of the time and effort on the breeders part to make certain that all of this is taken care. This is only for the case of ruling out HD. You want the heart certified, be prepared to spend around $500 or more for the cardiologist to give your sire or dam the all clear. Then you're on to other testing and such.

I find it very disturbing that you so quickly toss aside the tireless work that goes into producing a quality litter of puppies, one that a breeder can fill confident in giving a health guarantee to for the entire life of the dog. Your disregard and lack of respect for the work that they do to better the breed and insure healthy animals is nauseating.

Like I said it costs money but breeders do make money a lot of money. When I was a child I know more childhood stories, we had an actually very famous boxer breeder that lived across the street from us. She has been on pedigree comercials for breeding champion boxers she was my babysitter. So I saw how much money they make. So to do all of the health checks I bet they make that money back the first litter. The rest the bitch put out is pure profit. So you say $500 to get the heart certified like I said you get that done and make more than that back on one pup. SO if a bitch can make a breeder 27,000 over her life. Is it feaseable getting health checks cost that. Probably not, all I'm saying is "show breeders" make tons of money on these puppies too. They use their dogs pedigrees to charge more. There's nothing wrong with it but don't try to take the moral high ground and say you do it only for the betterment of the breed. You do it for money too.

 

[Astoreen]

mdowling-

So, you want to get into a pissing match because you think you have all of the answers and know the whole deal? What sort of factual information do you have to substantiate your claims of profit for breeders? Mere supposition?

Consider the breeder, of champion dogs, mind you, who lost $15K last year from one litter of puppies?? Explain that to me? Responsible, reputable breeders don't sit down, figure the costs they've incurred and then sell their dogs for that price. For example, a breeder spends $5K getting her bitch health tested, she gets pregnant but only has one puppy (it's common). Do you think the breeder could reasonably ask $5K for this one dog just, as you say, to make back whatever s/he spent. You're ridiculous and have obivously never truly talked with a responsible breeder who breeds for the betterment of the breed (mere observation doesn't count either because you just continue to make faliicious claims). After you do your homework, come back and then maybe we'll have a chat. Until then, quit spouting off such nonsense.

Moral high ground!? You're funny!

 

[Donna741]

Originally posted by mdowling
Like I said it costs money but breeders do make money a lot of money.

Okay, I have been watching this thread but not saying anything because I see that everyone else has interjected some valuable knowledge. However at this point I just have to interject.

All of my life we (my family and I) have had show dogs. We have showed, bred and handled dogs of several different breeds over the years. I myself started handling professionally when I was 12 years old. I can tell you from personal experience and having bred and showed dogs for 16 years that most REPUTABLE breeders DON'T make any money. We NEVER made any money, we did it all for the love of the dogs and the betterment of the breed.

In addition to medical bills (which have already been mentioned) if you have a well bred litter of 6 pups you will usually have 3 or 4 who are show quality (if you're lucky and did your genetics research well). Of those you will sell maybe 2 for a full show quality price. The other show pups you will more than likely place in show homes, with an agreement for a pick of litter puppy back (if it's a female) or a stud service (if it's a male). The pet puppies you will place in pet homes on a spay/neuter contract for a fraction of the price you are asking for show pups (usually about $150-$300 for pet quality).

Now you need to add to that all of the show entry fees that you pay to show these wonderful creatures. You're talking $20 per class they are entered in, which means about $40 per show weekend, per dog. Then you have your gas money and hotel money to attend the show, and some extra money for food. Plus if you don't handle yourself you're going to be paying another $100 to $200 for a handler to show your dog for you.

 

[Debbie Magon]

Mdowling.
I want to know who the hell is making a ton of money out of breeding AND doing it right cause it sure aint ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a load of crap!!!
Just goes to show you know SQUAT about breeding!

PS: My bank manager will be interested in this post of yours . He will now be expecting me to pay of my substantial loan a lot quicker!!