Breeding

Status
Not open for further replies.

Peggy G

Boxer Insane
Mdowling, I was just wondering if you have learned anything from the posts on this tread? I mean this sincerely.


I also have to mention this...in addition to health issues, the more byb's breed boxers that dont meet the standard, the farther we get away from the true look & character traits of the boxer that we all know & love.
 

Boxer_21

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by mdowling
we had an actually very famous boxer breeder that lived across the street from us. She has been on pedigree comercials for breeding champion boxers she was my babysitter. So I saw how much money they make.

If this breeder is so very famous, then we must all know of her. Could you back this statement up with a name?? Just seems funny, that now and only now you happen to bring this "very famous breeder" who used to babysit you and appearantly showed you how much money she made.
 

JulieM

Boxer Insane
Like I said it costs money but breeders do make money a lot of money. When I was a child I know more childhood stories, we had an actually very famous boxer breeder that lived across the street from us. She has been on pedigree comercials for breeding champion boxers she was my babysitter. So I saw how much money they make. So to do all of the health checks I bet they make that money back the first litter. The rest the bitch put out is pure profit. So you say $500 to get the heart certified like I said you get that done and make more than that back on one pup. SO if a bitch can make a breeder 27,000 over her life. Is it feaseable getting health checks cost that. Probably not, all I'm saying is "show breeders" make tons of money on these puppies too. They use their dogs pedigrees to charge more. There's nothing wrong with it but don't try to take the moral high ground and say you do it only for the betterment of the breed. You do it for money too.

If a breeder is producing enough dogs to be in a Pedigree commercial, they have plenty of money outside of the dogs.

Sure, breeders make a lot of money. Even reputable ones. HOWEVER - they also SPEND a lot of money, before they sell the puppies, and it is almost always more than they make from a litter.

Let's take your example, but we'll be realistic about it, OK? First of all, "all the health checks" is a lot more than just the heart testing. You have hip x-rays ($250), thryoid test ($100), Doppler ($300), Holter ($200), brucellosis ($40), progesterone testing ($50 per day, at least 3 days and sometimes 7 or more; we'll average it at $250). Plus OFA certification for hips, heart, holter and thyroid - $75. That's $1215 in testing, and some breeders do CERF as well which is another probably $150+. Then you have the stud fee - about $700 for a quality, health tested male. Then, there are the vet checks for the bitch while she's in whelp - palpation ($30), ultrasound ($50), x-rays ($75). $2070 and we haven't had the pups yet. Once the puppies are born, provided there are no problems with the delivery, there is tail docking and dewclaws. We'll use an average litter of 6 puppies - at $25 per puppy that's $250 - plus checking mom over and giving a pit shot if necessary, another $30. Then vaccinations and wormings, which most breeder give at least once and some twice - we'll average that to $25 per puppy, so another $250. Heart check at 7 weeks, at $30 per puppy, is another $180. $2780. Now, we need to include the increased food and supplements for mom while she's in whelp and nursing, and then the food for the puppies. My last litter, that ended up being about $600. $3380. Plus at least week off of work, for me $620 (unless you've got paid vacation, which I don't). So we're at $4000 and these are probably cheap prices, but I get a deal from my vet. Now - we're breeding for ourselves, of course, so we're keeping one of the puppies. We have 5 puppies to sell, if we charge $800 each (the high average across the country) we've just broken even.

Oh - wait - we haven't included the costs of showing and finishing the bitch. That's about $5000 in and of itself. So, the next litter will cover $4000 of that, so there's $1000 left to make up with the third litter. (And a responsible breeder will almost never have more than three litters with a bitch, and often only two.) But, we've also had two more stud fees ($700 each), and four Holters and four thyroid tests (these are repeated yearly, and we skip a year between litters). Tack on another $1200, plus $120 for OFA certification. And, of course, two more brucellosis tests and progesterone testing, another $580. So, we're back up to $3840 - yippee, we made a profit of $160 after 3 litters! Oh - but wait - we forgot about the litter registration for AKC ($25 plus $2 per puppy, so $37 per litter which equals $111) and the individual registration for our three puppies from the litter ($15 each for $45). What's our profit? $4.

Then, of course, there are some breeders who reimburse for spay/neuter on their puppies - that's $500 per litter, so we're now at a loss of $1496. And, some breeders pay for the AKC registration for all the puppies - subtract another $75 per litter. Then there are the really "crazy" breeders who offer incentives for obedience training, titles, etc. I won't count them, because there are not many of them (although I am one), but keep them in mind.

Our grand total profit? $ -1646

Yep, that's enough to give me an early retirement.
 

Astoreen

Completely Boxer Crazy
Julie,

Hands down, you are one of the funniest and smartest people I know. Hey, when you take that early retirement, let's all go to Cancun or the Caymann's for a vacation and spend all of the profit from breeding boxers!! smashicon smashicon
 

macca

Boxer Pal
My dog came from a reputable breeder, they chose however not to register the puppies after looking into it, which is there choice, looking back I would have prefered cass to be reg but she is a lovely dog and im not really into shows, I prefer agility its more social, however I have only been to a ribbon parade to watch so I may be wrong about classing but if its anything like horses, and i see a lot of parallels. I dont think cass would be too happy about being clean and proper.
Any way this was never sposed to get into a slinging match I was just want things like "my puppies liked weetbix" etc.
My lonh term plan for the future, once i have been in the workforce for a while (I am a third year student) is to start my own boutique boxer and sporthorse stud and am hoping to compliment this with my marketing and management degree. I will however breed reg boxers. So everything you have been saying (sept the mud slinging, people are entitled to their opinions, I have one question to ask you did you have yourselves tested before having children, everyone is so concerned about dogs but what about all the children that are born with problems- this seems very selfish to me ) is very interesting.

Does anyone have any templates of purchase contracts I could look at?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JulieM

Boxer Insane
macca, I do think most of the posts have been directed at mdowling and his stalwart support of bybs, and not at you.

As for testing before having children - I chose not to have children, health and overpopulation problems being among the many reasons, but I do think that in families where genetic problems have been seen, testing should be done. Since there are *NO* Boxers in North America that do not trace back to lines where genetic problems have been seen - usually within the first 5 generations - it is completely false (ignorant, deceptive, blind) for a North American breeder to say "I don't have it in my lines." I know you are NZ but you do have genetic diseases there, too, just some different ones.
 

VTbxrFan

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by macca
I have one question to ask you did you have yourselves tested before having children, everyone is so concerned about dogs but what about all the children that are born with problems- this seems very selfish to me ) is very interesting.

There is a very important distinction here: unplanned/unwanted children are not thrown into cages to await a fate of being euthanized. Sick children are not abandoned because of lack of money to treat them (well, unfortunately I'm sure some of been, but not to the extent that dogs are, and it certainly isn't legal to do so with a child.) I certainly agree that people who know or suspect that they carry genes for diseases should think long and hard about whether they should have children and should look into available testing, but it really isn't the same type of issue as dogs. There are many more laws to protect children than there are to protect pets.
 

Alisha Mobley

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by mdowling


Let me understand this logic. You are mad because BYB contribute to overpopulation which leads to overcowding shelters, which lead to animals needing to be euthenized. Yet you are for taking all BYB litters and euthenizing all of the puppies. Which would amount to thousands of dogs. I am confused.

The way I look at it is the problem is already here so we must work backwards (so to speak) to 'fix' the problem. So, even though I don't like that BYB's continue to breed I'm mad at the people who buy from them. We must start at the end of the line and work up towards the beginning which means the puppy buyer is where we would start. No one will ever convince a BYB or puppy mill to stop breeding as long as there are buyers.:(

If all of a sudden people quit buying from them then yes, thousands of puppies would be killed. But, as long as people keep buying from them, then millions of puppies AND dogs will be killed.

If one BYB quit breeding because one litter didn't sell and had to be euthenized just think of how many future puppies were just saved...could easily be in the hundreds!! I'd much rather see 6-8 puppies killed then for hundreds to be abused, mistreated for years and then killed.:(

You say you've always spay/neutered your BYB dogs but that's just 1 dog from a whole litter. Of course it helps, but the other 5 or 6 pups that weren't altered contributed to the problem as well as the many other pups that came along after your pup that weren't altered either. Pups that your BYB wouldn't have produced if people like you wouldn't have bought any from the very first litter. When you handed over your money for your puppy you supported and agreed with this "breeder" in what he/she does...which is contribute to the problem of unwanted and mistreated dogs.:(

I'm sure your support for your "breeder" and all the BYB's you've supported in the past wasn't knowingly. Uneducated people do make mistakes that can't be changed but many are trying to educate you now to prevent future mistakes. Love your dog you have now, take advantage of the knowledge that's being offered to you now and hopefully your future pets will be purchased from someone who has earned the support of buyers.:)

BTW ~ I checked out your web page...you have a beautiful family but couldn't find any Boxer pics...when you gonna update?:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top