Breeding
- Thread starter macca
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Sube Ru's mom
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I realized that, i am sorry for the mistake!
There are so many replies because we are all interested in helping you see why your views are so damaging to the boxer breed and pet overpopulation - not because we find your point of view interesting. It is what we fight against - what we work so hard to change - and what we think of when we go home at night and look at our baby dogs who were born sick or had to be rescued because of people like you.
Sube Ru - I'm not sure why you are aplogizing, you addressed your response to nmac.
Sube Ru - I'm not sure why you are aplogizing, you addressed your response to nmac.
Boxer_21
Boxer Insane
This site was created to educate the public about boxers and everything boxer related. I've learned so much from this place in just 5+ months. One of things that I've learned is that BYB's are a huge factor in the overcrowdedness of shelters/rescues. They produce litter after litter after litter because people buy them adn they get their money. They don't put that money back into their dogs health, they go straight into their wallets. They've found that producing so many puppies (WITHOUT DOING THE TESTING) will give them easy money in the thousands+ (for an average litter) just do the math...
This is all hypothetical, as I would never do this. Just to show where I'm coming from... Let's say that I had one boxer female (many BYB'ers will have a few) of 2 years who is going into heat. I've found another UNTESTED male boxer to breed to mine and I pay... oh, $200 for the stud fee. Then in two months my dog gives birth to a litter of 6. Let's say that I plan to sell each puppy for the "cheap fee" of $350. That's $2100 for the litter of UNTESTED boxer puppies. Subtract the stud fee of $200 and I've made $1,900 on this litter.
Now let's say that this dog who lived to be 10 had a total of 6 litters in her life (many BYB'ers breed for more than 6 litters). All of the puppies were sold at the LOW RATE OF $350. With an average of 6 puppies per litter, I would've made a grand total of $11,400 off of this one dog. Don't forget, many BYB'ers have more than one female to breed so you can multiply that number times 3 or 4 which would be $34,200 to $46,500.
That's a LOT of money for puppies which can carry bad genes and a bad temperment. BYB'ers are in it just for the money. They don't care what these puppies can carry or what diseases they may have. Not to mention that would create (an average to this scenario) of 36 puppies per dog who could become ill and to expensive for the owners to care for. Then where would this LOW RATE puppy go?? To the shelter!!! That's where the overpopulation comes from!!They just want the money, which makes they breed for more and more litters. If people stopped buying from them that would drastically cut down the dog population. Saying that it wouldn't is just crazy!!
JulieM
Boxer Insane
mdowling:
You seem to have (conveniently?) avoided responding to my previous posts, but I'll have another go at it.
The rules state that you may not promote irresponsible breeding, which you have been doing. It has been allowed to continue, in the hopes that you or others would perhaps learn something, because it has not gotten especially heated thus far. It's starting to get that way and this thread will be closed if it continues in this vein.
The rules also state that you may not post inflammatory or argumentative messages, which the previous one is IMO.
Eric is right - well-bred, well-socialized dogs do not "snap." They do, however - and rightly so - react to children (and dogs) that are rude/hurtful. If someone does not teach their children the proper way of interacting with dogs, that child is likely to get bit. But let's put the blame where it truly lies - with the parents, and not with the dogs. (Not that this is directed at anyone here personally - I have no idea how any of you raise your children - but most cases of dogs biting children are caused by the child.)
And I don't think Alisha is so much in favor of euthanizing byb puppies as she is of not buying them - which, true, may lead to their euthanization but would also quickly lead to the end of that particular byb. And since most shelter animals are from bybs anyway, euthanization is the end result for bybs regardless of whether it is done as a puppy or as an adult.
You seem to have (conveniently?) avoided responding to my previous posts, but I'll have another go at it.
The rules state that you may not promote irresponsible breeding, which you have been doing. It has been allowed to continue, in the hopes that you or others would perhaps learn something, because it has not gotten especially heated thus far. It's starting to get that way and this thread will be closed if it continues in this vein.
The rules also state that you may not post inflammatory or argumentative messages, which the previous one is IMO.
Eric is right - well-bred, well-socialized dogs do not "snap." They do, however - and rightly so - react to children (and dogs) that are rude/hurtful. If someone does not teach their children the proper way of interacting with dogs, that child is likely to get bit. But let's put the blame where it truly lies - with the parents, and not with the dogs. (Not that this is directed at anyone here personally - I have no idea how any of you raise your children - but most cases of dogs biting children are caused by the child.)
And I don't think Alisha is so much in favor of euthanizing byb puppies as she is of not buying them - which, true, may lead to their euthanization but would also quickly lead to the end of that particular byb. And since most shelter animals are from bybs anyway, euthanization is the end result for bybs regardless of whether it is done as a puppy or as an adult.
Writting "I haven't had trouble yet" is not very convincing...
About the rules: we don't allow "discussion of breeding practices that would be deemed by most to be unethical or irresponsible. This would include, but is not limited to: [snip] breeding untested dogs...".
With a simple X-ray to screen for hip dysplasia we can prevent so many sad stories (and sad life for the dogs and their owners).
I recommend you to read the thread below:
http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13720
It's not with just "going to the vet to get a checkup, shots, and worm check" to borrow your sentence that you can check potential hip dysplasia trouble.
Another page to visit:
http://www.boxerworld.com/rescue/excuses/
Here are the questions Julie asked you:
If you don't show and don't test, how do you know you have two good dogs?
Why is bringing home a full grown dog not an option?
Do you think that show dogs do not play in the park? Do you think that "just pet" dogs do not have "fifth generation" pedigrees?
mdowling
Boxer Buddy
Why is bringing home a full grown dog not an option?
I did answer this one, though not directed at her, but it was answered in some previous posts.
If you don't show and don't test, how do you know you have two good dogs?
I'm not against testing your animals for medical problems before breeding. But once the test are done which aren't that lengthy or expensive that would require someone to charge that much for a puppy. If a breeder has the tests done on a bitch, and she has five litters in her life, with an average six pups per litter, charging $900 a puppy, that's $27,000. I know it doesn't cost near this to test a dog. Like you said testing for HD is a simple X-Ray. There's no reason to charge 900-2000 dollars for a dog. Whatever money the breeder spends on testing is made up in the first litter. I think a lot of that is markup because they're selling a "show quality dog". I don't think you're dog needs to be show quality in order to be bred. I also think these breeders also make a good amount of money, and when they say they don't make anything or lose money by breeding a dog is hard to buy.
Do you think that show dogs do not play in the park? Do you think that "just pet" dogs do not have "fifth generation" pedigrees?
I'm sure show dogs play in the park too. My point is a dog shouldn't have to have a fifth generation pedigree and cost a small fortune to be considered a good dog, and a good family pet.
I did answer this one, though not directed at her, but it was answered in some previous posts.
If you don't show and don't test, how do you know you have two good dogs?
I'm not against testing your animals for medical problems before breeding. But once the test are done which aren't that lengthy or expensive that would require someone to charge that much for a puppy. If a breeder has the tests done on a bitch, and she has five litters in her life, with an average six pups per litter, charging $900 a puppy, that's $27,000. I know it doesn't cost near this to test a dog. Like you said testing for HD is a simple X-Ray. There's no reason to charge 900-2000 dollars for a dog. Whatever money the breeder spends on testing is made up in the first litter. I think a lot of that is markup because they're selling a "show quality dog". I don't think you're dog needs to be show quality in order to be bred. I also think these breeders also make a good amount of money, and when they say they don't make anything or lose money by breeding a dog is hard to buy.
Do you think that show dogs do not play in the park? Do you think that "just pet" dogs do not have "fifth generation" pedigrees?
I'm sure show dogs play in the park too. My point is a dog shouldn't have to have a fifth generation pedigree and cost a small fortune to be considered a good dog, and a good family pet.
Peggy G
Boxer Insane
Boxers are susceptible to more health problems than many other breeds. Given a chance, responisble breeders, who only breed heath tested boxers, can work these boxer related heath issues out of the breed so they live longer, heathier lives.
I also want to point out that when you pay the extra for a health tested boxer, chances are it is that much less then you will be paying in vet bills. Lets say you pay $400 extra for a health tested boxer, that $400 can sometimes be one visit to the vet for a poorly bred boxer. Plus, the dog suffers.
A couple of months ago I went down to the vet and asked if there was anything I needed to do before breeding Cassidy. They told me that if she had been checked up she would be fine and there was nothing more I needed to do. I will however ring around the vets and find out more about it. Thanks.
If the breeders out there are so worried about over population why are they still breeding? Also the reply about a goood breeder not making any money, I dont think they would be in the business if they didnt.
I also have horses and I know that you can pick up a horse for $250 and it can beat even the most expensive horses, I also know you can pay top dollar and it can drop dead on you.
I will put in the contrat about taking the pups back as I do not want to see any going to bad homes, I have turned down many potential horse owners after background checks.
Thanks for that peice of advice.
There will also be someone home twenty four seven with her so if there are any complications she can be whiped off to the vet. Yes her parents have been health tested.
Are you saying that because my dog does not have a peice of paper (her parents are reg) that she is going to have more problems than your reg dogs??
If the breeders out there are so worried about over population why are they still breeding? Also the reply about a goood breeder not making any money, I dont think they would be in the business if they didnt.
I also have horses and I know that you can pick up a horse for $250 and it can beat even the most expensive horses, I also know you can pay top dollar and it can drop dead on you.
I will put in the contrat about taking the pups back as I do not want to see any going to bad homes, I have turned down many potential horse owners after background checks.
Thanks for that peice of advice.
There will also be someone home twenty four seven with her so if there are any complications she can be whiped off to the vet. Yes her parents have been health tested.
Are you saying that because my dog does not have a peice of paper (her parents are reg) that she is going to have more problems than your reg dogs??
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