Need some expert advice on my possible new dog

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JulieM

Boxer Insane
In the best interests of the bitch?
No.

But honestly, Christina, is breeding *ever* truly in the best interests of the bitch? I guess that's where I'm struggling - I don't see the difference between placing this bitch on a breeding agreement and placing any other bitch on a breeding agreement.


In the best interests of her newbie possible owners who have no clue on this planet about breeding?
No

Possibly not, and I'd imagine that's why the breeder is bringing the bitch back for breeding/whelping. And again, if they're not comfortable with it certainly it's not an option for either party.

If Kaylee is that vitally important to this breeder as a brood bitch, she would keep her herself.

Of course, but if a perfect home comes along why not place the bitch there?

Obviously this is not the situation the breeder planned for (having the bitch returned) and so I believe she should put the best interests of Kaylee above all else and place her in a loving and non-breeding home.

Of course, the argument could be made that placing her yet again is contrary to her best interests, as well....

My opinion of course and I stick by it.

Of course, and I've no intention of trying to change it. ;) Just trying to understand, or maybe define, a little better. I rarely disagree with you, and I don't entirely on this either. :)
 

JulieM

Boxer Insane
I guess the best thing is for me to talk very openly with the breeder, express my concerns, and see what she is willing to do.

I think this is exactly the right thing to do. :) If you aren't comfortable with breeding, don't feel forced into it just to give Kaylee a home - if this breeder is what she seems, Kaylee won't go anywhere if it's not a loving home.
 
Originally posted by JulieM
But honestly, Christina, is breeding *ever* truly in the best interests of the bitch? I guess that's where I'm struggling - I don't see the difference between placing this bitch on a breeding agreement and placing any other bitch on a breeding agreement.
It is true Julie and I usually see eye to eye on most situations. But our life experience are what shapes us. Neither situation is wrong. I just happen to feel very passionately about such a scenerio. I have been faced with both as a breeder and as someone involved in Rescue.

To me, the difference is this bitch is being rehomed. She is a family member that is being given up for adoption. Her entire world is about to change. We are not speaking about a young puppy that is being sold into a home where she will be bred later. That has already happened to Kaylee. We are talking about an older Boxer who has already whelped a litter, been uprooted from her family, and will be so again. While is it true it is never "in the best interests of the bitch to breed her" even the one time, it is far more acceptable and appropriate when that is an event that has been planned from the beginning. And of course, that litter was whelped in her family's home with people she has trusted and loved since puppy hood.

This new development is not such a normal situation. I am also a breeder that would never sell even a puppy into a home for breeding if that is not something the owners wanted. Regardless who whelps the litter. If you see how few times I have had litters, you can easily see this is the truth with my placements.

I have no ego about my Boxers as far as them all having to be bred. I believe I have very nice Boxers but so do so many other people. I try to breed selectively. And on the occasion that I have had adults returned to me, they are spayed/neutered and placed in loving homes. When a dog is rehomed, I honestly believe that is the time for the DOG to come first above all other agendas. I even had a lovely flashy marked fawn bitch returned at 10 months old. She was placed as a show prospect and her owners basically changed their mind midstream. She was lovely. Triple JetBreaker Granddaughter out of my Booker T. I could have resold her as a show pup I am sure. But instead I spayed her and put her into the best pet home you could ever want. I still get updates from her owners. I gave the original owners all their money back and only charged the new owner what it cost to have her spayed. And this is a decision I wrestled long and hard with. Believe me.

__________________
Christina Ghimenti
PawPrint Boxers

Sunny Northern California
Boxer Champions and Loving Pets
 

Joan I.

Boxer Buddy
Hi, it's me again!

Still no chat with the breeder, but I do want to say that I think both of these arguments hold great merit. I am taking everything to heart, and I have to say that I want to do what's best for Kaylee, which I know, if she could talk, would be to say, "give me a loving home, and don't ever let me go." She has given the breeder one litter, otherwise I would be more inclined to accept her being bred. I do think that the breeder is within the lines of acting ethically, but maybe not in the best interests of the dog. She is willing to give me the dog, but she does want something in return. Now if it were me, and I'm not in a position to make a "professional" opinion, I would want to place the dog where she will be the happiest, and I think that would be spayed, into a family home. BUT, she is in business too, and has worked hard on developing her breed line, so I can see why she would like to breed her another time.

I also know that once I fall in love with this dog, I won't want to let her go for any reason. But how far am I willing to go to "save" her from being bred? How much money am I willing to spend? Certainly not the $700 she initially asked.

I hope that the breeder sees to it to let Kaylee come to me for few hundred dollars, and lets me spay her. That would be my choice. I guess another option is to agree to let the breeder breed her, but not right away. (She is due to come into heat in March or April.) That would give her a chance to settle in well and truly.

I want what is best for Kaylee. But if she loses her opportunity to come to what I know is going to be a boxer heaven home for her, because I won't agree to let her be bred, am I then doing the best for her? If the breeder doesn't find a home for her that is willing to go through the breeding, no doubt she will keep her, and breed her anyway of course. And she won;t have this great home on top of it.

If the breeder says she either wants a breeding right, or $700, then I will have a decision to make. It won't be the $700, that's for sure, but it might be to give her a home despite the breeding obligation.

Thanks all...

Chat with everyone soon!

Joni
 

VTbxrFan

Boxer Insane
Very interesting thread...a lot of things to consider.

I'm not a breeder, but here's my thought on the situation: If the breeder is set on having another litter from this girl, she's not likely to change her mind. It does seem to me that having her come back to her breeder just now, then go off to a new home for a few months, then back to the breeder to have the litter is an awful lot of adjusting for her. Maybe the breeder would consider keeping her for these next months until she whelps and raises the litter and then placing her after she's finished so she can then go to her forever home and stay there. This might also help with your (Joni) concerns about risking losing another dog if something does go wrong. Certainly it will be heartbreaking in any case if something goes wrong and I certainly hope it doesn't, but it probably wouldn't be quite as hard on you and your family to lose a dog that was "almost" yours as it would if she lived with you for three months and then you lost her. But of course the flip side of that is waiting many more months to have a dog in your home.
 

JulieM

Boxer Insane
I do just want to clarify that I'm speaking more in general terms than about this particular situation. We really don't know all the details of this situation; for example, maybe the breeder never got a puppy back from the first litter at all, and that's why she'd like to breed a second litter. I absolutely agree that if the owners are hesitant about breeding, the pup/dog does not go on breeding terms (or, perhaps, does not go at all).

You're very right, Christina, in that our experiences do so much to shape our opinions. If the breeder we got our foundation bitch from felt as you did, we never would have had our first litter. She was not a puppy placed at 8-10-12 weeks and bred much later. She was "rehomed" at about 18 months, taken from the family she knew. Her entire world changed. And yet, a year and a half later, we bred her. She whelped quickly and easily, had healthy puppies that thrived, and recovered quickly. Now, at a little over 7 years old, she's ruling the roost and giving heck to her children and grandchildren - and bringing us joy daily. I couldn't have asked for anything better.
 

SammynDqtz

Boxer Insane
Probably what I would do is to ask the breeder to keep Kaylee until after she is all done raising the next litter and then have her come home to stay with you. That way you won't have to be nervous about the breeding and whelping as much, as she will be with someone that knows what they are doing and getting into.
 

Vela

Boxer Insane
That is a great option Sammy and VTBoxer. That way she won't actually have to really adjust to anything until after she's whleped and it might work out nicely for everyone. Its already February so you would most likley be about Five months before she could come home. That's at least another option that may be a possibility.

If everything works out to the end that you take her home and then she is bred later then I hope everything goes smoothly and without a hitch so everybody can be happy in the end.

I don't know that breeder and can only go from the experience I had which was not good for me but that has no bearing on your situation.

I hope it all works out for the best! Good luck!
 

Joan I.

Boxer Buddy
Hi all:

Well, I am somewhat disheartened to say that I spoke with the breeder, and she is sticking to wanting to breed Kaylee one more time. I expressed my concerns about the risks involved, and the subsequent heart break it could cause myself and my family, and of course concern for the dog, and she said that Kaylee whelped her last litter with absolutely no problems, as did Kaylee's mother, and grandmother. She said that if there was any kind of risky history, she would not be breeding the dog. She indicated that she has another bitch that required a C-section, (different parents,) and even though she is a great dog, she is likely going to spay her because she doesn't want to risk another section for her. (Unfortunately, this bitch is a very excitable girl, quite out of control and needs some work, which wouldn't be great for us with 2 small children...Not preferable anyway...)

I also said that I was feeling badly for Kaylee, losing her home, then going to the breeder's, then to us, then back to the breeder, that she may feel upset and afraid. The breeder said that Kaylee has spent a lot of time in her home. During her first two years, she lived close to the breeder's, and she often went there for baby-sitting. She has been at the breeder's for 6 months or so now. She said Kaylee is in her "home away from home." She said that Kaylee is a laid back and relaxed dog, with no behavioural isses, despite the fact she lost her home. She didn't think she would have a problem with the transitions.

I asked her if she would consider taking some money for her, and letting us spay her, and she said no. She said her last litter was excellent, but the boys were all plain, and she would like to see if she can get a flashy boy next time. She said she could have placed her a couple of times, but she wanted the right home and waited.

So, I just don't know. I am wondering whether I am passing up a great dog, (at no money up front I might add,) because I am worried about possible whelping problems that may and probably won't occur, if her past whelping history can be taken into consideration at all. Maybe she would deal well with the time here, then the time spent away. She sounds like the right type of dog for us, I guess I just hadn't bargained for a "show" dog, or a "breeding" dog when I started to look for another family pet.

The breeder did say we should take our time and not rush into anything until we felt comfortable.

So maybe I should do just that. Sit with it a few days and see how I feel. I am disappointed because we were all set to go meet her tomorrow night, and we were very excited about the possibly of a new boxer family member. The "no dog" emptiness is tough for me. But I don't want my impatience to guide me into a poor decision, or one I feel unsure about.

It could be an option to wait til the breeder has bred her one more time, then if all goes well, then take her, but if she doesn't go into heat til April, that would mean we wouldn't get her til at least July. That's a long time to wait when we would like a dog right now! She could be living with us that whole time.

I don't know, maybe the strings attached to this girl are too risky for us. I feel very bad for Kaylee. Here we are just wanting to take her home and love her up, and I KNOW she would be so happy to come with us, and yet this situation seems like it's preventing us from getting together.

Maybe I should put my heart into searching out another dog, but for some reason I feel attached to this one, and I haven't even met her yet. Maybe it's cause I feel bad for her, and I'm such a sucker for a sad boxer face...

My husband and I will chat about it tonite, and maybe I will call the breeder back and say we need to think about it some more.

Thanks all. Your input has meant so much to me. The way that these wonderful dogs are treated, and the whole issue of integrity and ensuring I do whatever I can to contribute to their well being is crucial to me.

Anyone know a boxer that needs a home with no strings attached??!!

Joni
 

Debbie Magon

Boxer Pal
Joan,

For what its worth here are my opinions.
I DO NOT breed to supply people with pets.
I breed to get a better dog than I already have.
The fact that a bitch will give me MORE than the one perfect puppy I am looking for means yes, I do end up with pets for people.

So the pet puppies go off to their homes.
Some are forever homes and some sadly arnt.

The "pick" stays with me or sometimes the "pick" goes to someone I know and trust to be ran on till I can decide what future this dog has within my breeding and showing programme.
At NO time is this dog not a loved and cared for PET!

Ask any " reputable" breeder.
They are NOT breeding to supply pets they are breeding for the betterment of the breed.
Those whom are fortunate enough to acquire a puppy or even an adult dog are truly getting a well bred boxer.
So from my point of view I see absolutely no wrong in the breeder having another litter from this bitch and rehousing her to your family.
As a breeder she is obviously trying to protect and maintain the correctness of the breed.
She has also waited until just the perfect family come along for this girl.
What more could anyone want?

I cannot see why anyone would want to condemn this breeder for keeping the best interests of the boxer breed at heart!
As for the risk factor to the bitch?
Well all you boxer lovers out there where do you think boxers come from?
If someone dosnt breed then how is anyone going to get pets?
Better that a reputable breeder of good standing is maintaining the correctness of the breed , under a careful and well established breeding programme , than some BYB!
Dont start knocking the very people that boxer lovers should be supporting.
 
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