Why is this happening?

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mmsimon

Super Boxer
We have to go in to the vet soon anyway and will ask then. But I will wait it out until later in the week. They did a stool test on her in the office but I know that they send away to the lab for some. I wonder what the difference is and if they may have missed something. Any idea what else may cause loose stools? Allerigies right? The coccidia (sp?) is more when you see diarrhea right?
 

gmacleod

Elusive Moderator
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Is coccidia what she was actually diagnosed with, and the antibiotics were in aid of?

If so, then that is likely the problem still. Treatment of coccidia isn't instant - the meds don't kill the coccidia organisms, they just inhibit their breeding ability. So what's actually going on with the treatment is that the coccidia is prevented from multiplying long enough for the pup's immune system to catch up. It could just be that she didn't quite catch up, and needs a second round of meds ;) Here's a short veterinary article that gives you a bit more info: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&articleid=727

But beyond coccidiosis, there are lots of things that can cause loose stools. Food that is too rich or a food allergy is one thing. That's unlikely to be it in your case though, because the bland diet didn't help. If it's just gastric upset, bland diets usually cure all within about 24 hours. OK, there's a slight chance that she's allergic to rice, but otherwise I think food is unlikely to be the cause.

Antibiotics are another cause. And that can persist for a while.

Giardia, parvo-virus (I'm quite sure she doesn't have that), corona virus... well, a lot of different illnesses can cause loose stools. But that's something it's better not to speculate too far on. Vets are the ones with the medical degrees, and they should be the ones making medical diagnoses.
 

mmsimon

Super Boxer
Thanks again. That is helpful. She was not diagnosed with coccidia. We have not yet seen the vet for this. She has had lots of other issues (spaying, incontinence, allergies affecting her feet-this was what the antibiotics were for-foot infection) we have gone to the vet for. Guess we'll see what happens and then maybe a trip to the vet is in order.
 

2BoxBoys

Boxer Pal
Diet/stools

I use Natural Balance Potato/Duck also for my two boxer boys. They love it & the stools are consistent. Please check out www.Dogtorj.net It's full of useful info. Good luck!
 
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mmsimon

Super Boxer
Thanks 2 Boxboys. I was thinking about trying this out. Does it have any rice in it? Currently I am thinking that may be a problem.

Gmcleod, in case you haven't heard enough about my dog's bowels, she had diarrhea tonight, which is a first for us. It was also after her first obedience class so I wonder if stress may have played a role (she was upset that she couldn't play with the other dogs). She has never had D from stress as long as we have had her, and she has been rather stressed, especially in the beginning. I really don't know what to do now. We have some canned Hill's prescription diet that her breeder gave us for times like this and I think that may work to stabilize her. Of course it is a low quality food and gives her REALLY bad stinky gas but if it works...It also has no rice, which I am beginning to wonder if it is a problem. It just seems the more we do the worse this gets. When she only had soft stools to begin with, I feel like I opened up Pandora's box. Recently I was reading about how overfeeding can cause loose stools I thought this may have been the problem as I did increase her intake around the time things got mushy, but now I don't know what is going on. She has been on rice all her life (1 year)...it is possible that is the problem right? Why IS a rice allergy less rare? Sorry to be such a bother but I really did think it was food-related and the vet is not the not the one to go to for that :( Does this diet REALLY work for every dog? Isn't the protein content high compared to kibble? Maybe it is too rich for her? Thanks again for any help, anyone :)
 

gmacleod

Elusive Moderator
Staff member
Well, it works for almost every dog ;) I do recall one not that long ago that it didn't work for, and it was eventually determined that that dog was allergic to rice (amongst other things). But that's pretty uncommon - she's the only one I can recall. Obviously, that does not mean that your pup couldn't be the second LOL

Rice is generally a very low allergenic grain, probably because it is fairly low in gluten. It is used in a great many allergy formulas for that reason. But it is not impossible for a dog to be allergic to it (or to anything else, for that matter). If you're up for a little more testing, you could try swapping the rice for oatmeal and seeing if that makes a difference. Since your dog hasn't had oatmeal before (has she?) she can't have pre-existing antibodies against it, so if it's a rice allergy that is the problem you should see improvement as soon as it is taken away. And *if* that were the case, you'd know you needed a food sans rice (which actually narrows your options quite a bit).

I do wonder a bit about the I/D though... the breeder gave you that for times like this? That's rather unusual. Does that mean she has a history of digestive problems?
 

mmsimon

Super Boxer
Thanks again Gmcleod. I was also thinking of putting her on a rice-free kibble diet ASAP with the Hill's w/d mixed in to ease the transition. I thought this would be indicative enough whether she has a rice allergy or not. She has had oatmeal in some of her treats. I don't believe she has had any potato though. But I think I am through testing in this manner. Right now I really just want to stabilize her. I'll talk it though with hubby and we'll see. What do you think of potato? If I did that, how should I serve it? I guess mashed up? Sure would be nice to figure this out.

As for the prescription food, she gave us some to ease over the initial stress of changing homes. The extra was for when she may need firming up. I never thought more of that then many boxers get loose stools every now and then.

I really should contact her but I didn't want to worry her. Not sure how she will feel that we changed her food and such. How do you tell someone they feed their dogs crap without offending them :)
 

mmsimon

Super Boxer
Sorry this is sooo long :)

Hello again :)

Just to update, we fed Liza plain mashed potato and ground beef yesterday and so far today and she seems to be doing much better. FYI, I never did use the Rx food. Just couldn't do it. Ick!. Just one BM so far but it was solid! I find this hilarious that her poop excites me. LOL

Well, now I wonder what to do... I thought I would keep her on the potato and beef diet another day to be sure and then buy a rice-free kibble to transition her to. I am not totally convinced that it is a rice allergy but it is looking that way (especially with her being really ichy at the same time). I may revisit this later, but for now I thought there was no harm in going to a rice-free kibble.

It sure would be nice to know if the chicken was problematic. Do you think I should test that now (give potato and chicken) or leave well enough alone? I know that the bland diet should not be given long term. That is why I ask. I have found a few that look good to me (they must also have NO citric acid so that leaves Natual balance out), there are a few: Timberwolf Organics (the lower protein ones), Solid Gold, Wellness, and last in priority, California Natural. I would like to put her on a food with ingredients that are all novel to her so I am thinking of Solid Gold (I think she has had Herring before so that excludes Wellness, I think).

What do you think of my ideas, anyone? Gmacleod? Sorry I am so needy but owning a boxer has become a very complicated thing for us. Between the incontinence and the loose stools and allergies...I guess it could be worse so I won't complain. I just want the best for my baby :)
 

gmacleod

Elusive Moderator
Staff member
Well, that's good news :)

If it was me, I'd be inclined to say to heck with it, and test the chicken now. You might as well know if it's a problem or not. And since rice has turned out to be an issue, the chicken very well may not.

If you choose not to, well, it's not that big a deal. You'll probably end up avoiding chicken foods for a little while, and then eventually testing it with a kibble. And if it's a problem, then you've got a bag of chicken kibble to donate to the nearest shelter.

So, you're looking for a food that's good quality and preferably doesn't use chicken, rice or citric acid... Actually, it's not that easy to find a food using *none* of those things. Is the citric acid really a problem? It's only a bloat risk if you pre-soak it before feeding. There is no issue at all if it is fed dry.

How about Wellness' Fish & Sweet Potato? That isn't grainless, but is essentially fish, barley, sweet potato, rye and canola oil.
Nature's Variety Prairie Venison Medley is another possibility. That's venison, Millet, Pumpkin Seed, and Canola Oil (though this one does use citric acid)
 

mmsimon

Super Boxer
Thanks for the quick response :)

Liza doesn't drink much water so I like to soak her food (her breeder did this so that is what she was used to). I find it prevents her from gorging on it and hydrates her throughout the day, rather than gorging in the evening.

It is really unfortunate that many of the high quality foods use citric acid. I know Canidae changed but I sure wish others would follow suit. When I thought that Canidae still had citric acid in it I would take her water away prior to and after eating (for about 45 minutes each) to avoid the bloat factor. This was a pain, and then she didn't want to drink later when I gave the water back. I don't want her dehydrated.

Do you forsee changing from beef to chicken as causing any problem? I am just thinking of how changing kibble abruptly can cause problems. Should I combine the beef and chicken or switch straight away? It would be nice to know about chicken, and I have a bunch pre-made in the freezer for her.

Here are the dry foods I am thinking of:

http://solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=6&code=160

http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/dogs/wellness_detail.asp?pCode=dryDogSup5MixSwtPot

Timberwolf Ocean Blue:

Ingredients:
Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

PROTEIN: 26%
FAT: 16%
FIBER: 3%
MOISTURE: 9%
Kcal/kg: 3,675
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.4%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.4%
CALCIUM: 1.5%
PHOSPHOROUS: .9
VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG
VITAMIN D: 1,400 IU/KG
VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG
COPPER: 16mg/KG

Timberwolf Dakota:

Ingredients:
Fresh Bison Meat, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

PROTEIN: 26%
FAT: 16%
FIBER: 3%
MOISTURE: 9%
Kcal/kg: 3,680
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.8%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.4%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1
VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG
VITAMIN D: 1,200 IU/KG
VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG

Timberwolf Wilderness Elk:

Ingredients:
Fresh Elk, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

PROTEIN: 26%
FAT: 16%
FIBER: 3%
MOISTURE: 9%
Kcal/kg: 3,680
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.8%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.4%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1
VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG
VITAMIN D: 1,200 IU/KG
VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG
COPPER: 16mg/KG


The protein content looks low in the Solid Gold. As for the Wellness, I have heard of many dogs on here getting loose stools from that. What would you use? Are the protein sources used by Timberwolf more rich than fish? Like the Bison and Elk? I am not sure if I can get it in store here or if I would have to order it. Looking at the ingredients of Wellness, I wonder why it would upset tummies. Any idea? And of course I have thought of California Natural but would consider that a last attempt since it is probably missing some good nutrients. Thanks again :)
 
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