Trip to a breeder today. I don’t know? Advice needed.

[dsgordon]

We lost our Monty about a year ago to cancer. He was only 4 years old and I am still very sad about it. I can’t exactly blame the breeder but I would have to say it was a BYB. That being said Monty was a great dog excellent temperament and very obedient. When we moved to the house we have now our neighbors thought he was the best trained dog they had ever seen.

So this time I want to be very selective in choosing a breeder. I have emailed the ABC and local club looking for local breeders but have not as yet received a response .

My wife and I took a trip to a breeder we found today we found by searching the internet. The breeder had a second building just for the dogs. (Not sure I like this. Wouldn’t the puppies and the dogs be better socialized in the home with the family.) When we walked in there were several puppies in clean wood chip bins with food and clean water. Everything was very clean. The puppies were on the first floor and there was also a desk and another room behind a door. It looked like it could have been a converted garage. When I asked to meet the parents he brought us upstairs to were there were maybe 10 dogs in individual kennels. There we also met the dam that we were in interested in that will have a litter in April. We also meet the sire which was very black and he refereed to it as sealed. Several of the dogs were reverse or sealed. He kind of eluded that the black boxers pups would cost more and were rare. After reading this site that seems to be a red flag. There also was a very large fenced in area next to the building were two boxers were outside. We were told that one of them was the mother of two of the 4 pups he still had. Those two were already sold. We were there just to pick a breeder not get a pup today. We would like to have one in June. One again everything was very clean. All of the dogs looked very healthy. Some were really good looking boxers (Personal Taste) including the dam which I loved and sire was very nice just not my color favorite (sealed). But having never seen what a reel breeder or kennel would be like. I just have a funny feeling. Is this a large scale BYB or a puppy mill? Or is this what I should expect from a kennel or breeder?

I don’t know if this is against forum rules but here is the link to the add for there pups . If it is please edit.
Boxers on the run.
http://www.**************************/detail.php?id=216893

When I asked for references he said he did not keep phone numbers but he did give me a list of the people who bought pups from the dam I am looking at’s first litter. This will be here second. If I did put a deposit of 200 I would have pick on this litter. Once again they have two pups available now but I would have pick of the litter that will be ready to go home in June. My other concern is the contract for deposit he gave us to look at lists a 14 day guarantee to have vet check. Should there be a longer health guaranty? The total cost is 1200 but I thought he mentioned that a sealed would be more money. (I want a brindle anyway). There is also an additional 500 dollar cost if you want to show or bread the dog. I am not sure if this is standard or not. Don’t plan on show but have thought about obedience. Don’t know if that is the same.

Any advice? Finding a good breeder is hard. If you know any in eastern MA or southern NH let me know.

Thanks Dave

 

[gmacleod]

I don’t know if this is against forum rules but here is the link to the add for there pups . If it is please edit.
Boxers on the run.
http://www.**************************/detail.php?id=216893

Yes, it is against the forum rules - which VERY clearly state no advertising of puppies or breeders. Posting a link is advertising. You need to read the rules BEFORE you post things on the board - or ask in the contact mods if you're unsure. Don't just post it anyway and wait for us to discover it and clean up the mess afterward.

In this particular case, I have not had to edit your link - whatever site it went to was already banned from Boxerworld and deleted by the censor. That might give a bit of a clue as to reputable-ness... (or lack of it)

From what you have posted however, I would say that you have so many red flags there, you should be running at high speed from this breeder and finding a better one. Things that are badly wrong or suspicious include:

- charging more for "special" colours.
- keeping the dogs and puppies outside the breeder's own home. Anyone breeding on this sort of scale not only looks commercial, but keeping those pups out in another building makes it impossible to raise/socialise them properly.
- not definitive, but worthy of concern and further questioning is the fact that both sire and dam are owned/kept by the same breeder. Suggests that any two dogs will do, rather than any concern to find the best possible match.
- anyone using the word 'black' around boxers should be treated with extreme caution... Especially if they're also using words like "rare" when related to ANY colour (LOL - there are only 3, and none are in the least bit rare). A black boxer cannot exist - it is a physical and genetic impossibility. Black mutts/mixed breeds, on the other hand, abound - hard to get something more common than that. In any case, black is not a word that any responsible, care-taking breeder would care to hear around their brindle dogs (as it suggests they're mutts, not boxers). I don't actually suggest that you go back for another look anyway, but if you do - DO look very carefully to see that the dogs are actually clearly striped and brindle. If they're solid colour, they are not purebred boxers.
- health guarantee... what to say? It should be 2-5 years. What use is a 14 day guarantee when most genetically inherited (and screenable) conditions don't show up in puppies?
- the breeder (and yes, it is almost certainly a BYB) is not requiring you to spay/neuter - they should be.

Btw: I see nothing in your post above about the sire and dam's show records, or their screening for common genetically inherited conditions (of the sort that result in dogs dropping dead at a young age, or alternatively costing their unfortunate new owners thousands in ongoing vet care). Where are their holter monitor results? Their screening for aortic/sub-aortic stenosis? What are their hip scores? And the thyroid panel results? No boxer should be used for breeding without first being cleared of these very serious conditions - it is a pre-requisite for any sort of responsible breeding and I would not consider buying a puppy from someone who isn't taking this sort of basic care.

From what you have posted, it sounds as though you've managed to find a large scale backyard breeder. I'd suggest continuing your search till you find someone better.

 

[Darbysmom1]

Puppy Mill

I agree this sounds like a puppy mill or a very large scale BYB but as large of a set up as that is I would say puppy mill. gmacleod has stated all the reasons I would also say do not call this breeder back.. I would also like to ad to your questions about show puppies and breeding the dog costing more. A pet puppy should be sold with limited registration and a contract stating the dog needs to be fixed so if they would be willing to raise the price to give you breeding rights to a pet is another huge red flag. Good luck in your search but I would suggest calling the local breed club rather then just emailing as sometimes websites are a little out of date at some clubs. Also look under the AKC website for a local show in your area and then head down and talk with those you see at the show. They can help you find a local club or breeder. Good luck..

 

[dorimama]

I'm Canadian so I do not know the laws surrounding puppy mills in your state. If it were me; however, I would be reporting the breeder to the local SPCA or animal welfare group. Just because the puppies are clean does NOT mean that he is treating them well or adequately. And even if the SPCA chooses not to investigate the breeder at least you'll have done your part...(as long as you don't buy a puppy from him). Notifying local Boxer groups as well may also be useful... No matter, buying a puppy from this breeder should be absolutely out of the question.

Good luck! There are good breeders out there, you just have to look hard to find them!

 

[dsgordon]

Well my initial bad feeling regarding the visit to this breeder seems to have been confirmed here. I also called back the breeder to inquire regarding health testing of the dam and sire and as I am sure you would have guessed the answer is no. The health guaranty on the puppy is also only 14 days per state law.

I am not sure there is any use in reporting the breeder to the SPCA as there is no evidence of abuse at all. The dogs all looked very happy. Well feed and well exercised. That and as I have already stated everything was very clean. It just appears he is a large scale BYB running a business for profit.

It is located in NH and I believe that as long as the animals are handled and cared for correctly there no law against it. It just not good for the breed as has been written in the posts regarding BYB in this forum. Seems to me that the AKC allows registration of boxers from this type of breeders. So it appears that even if they feel it is a problem they don't take steps to prevent it.

As for me although tempted, I am going to pass on purchasing a pup from this breeder. My Monty was from a BYB (the family with two dogs stile) and although he was a great dog. Having him die from cancer at 4 has me looking for better breeder in hopes of a longer healthier life with my next dog this time.

And in this hear lies the problem. Finding a good breeder that does all the things mentioned in this forum is not easy. At least not in New England. I have now contacted all the boxer clubs in New England (MA, NH, CT, RI) by email and are waiting for responses. In the meantime I have found 2 more breeders through the internet that advertize that they are expecting litters.
Unfortunately none from what they advertize seems to fit the type of breeder that is recommended. Although I have not contacted all of them to verify.

I have made contact with one breeder that I was given their name by my vet. They all remember Monty. Unfortunately they are not expecting a litter anytime soon. They did say that they would ask around.

The other challenge I see from breeders that show dogs in my area is there seems to be a preference to breading dam and sire that are both fawns. Couple that with my desire for a brindle and that I am looking for a pet and not a show potential puppy. The chance of finding such a puppy from a quality breeder that has not already been clamed is not easy.

For now I am still searching.

 

[Caney Creek]

I would suggest calling the local breed club rather then just emailing as sometimes websites are a little out of date at some clubs.

I have now contacted all the boxer clubs in New England (MA, NH, CT, RI) by email and are waiting for responses.

Call them. SO many of the local breed club websites are out of date, and many reputable breeders' websites are as well. A lot of times, good breeders just don't keep up with their websites because they don't need to -- because they don't use them for anything other than maybe to brag. One thing you can count on though, is those "business-minded" breeders whose puppy sales rely heavily on internet advertising.

In the meantime I have found 2 more breeders through the internet that advertize that they are expecting litters. Unfortunately none from what they advertize seems to fit the type of breeder that is recommended. Although I have not contacted all of them to verify.

I wouldn't be surprised if you'd found 20 more breeders over the internet who are located near you and expecting puppies anytime. There is NEVER going to be a shortage of poorly bred dogs. And, if you're using an internet search engine to find "boxer breeders" in your area I can almost guarantee that you will come up with nothing but backyard breeders and puppy mills; that's just how the internet works. You'll have better luck sticking to the show circuit to find good breeders.

Have you looked up show schedules in your area? You can find a list of dog shows in your state by going to your local breed club's website and looking under "Puppies."

The other challenge I see from breeders that show dogs in my area is there seems to be a preference to breading dam and sire that are both fawns. Couple that with my desire for a brindle and that I am looking for a pet and not a show potential puppy.

I think most everybody searching for a puppy has a picture in their mind of what their "perfect puppy" will look like, but are you really suggesting that you'd prefer a poorly bred brindle pup to a well bred fawn? important than health and temperament?? I understand color preference but that's taking it WAY too far.

You are aware that champion dogs produce pet quality puppies, right? It is a very, VERY rare occurrence that an entire litter turns out to be "show potential." Usually there are more pet puppies than show puppies.


I know it's hard not to give in and buy first (or second or third) cute puppy you come across, but hang in there and keep searching for the RIGHT breeder. In the end you'll be glad you waited.

 

[Althea]

There are other resources...find a very serious dog training facility and ask if they recommend anyone. Ask around at your vets. Check in with other quality breeders in your area. All breeders who show their dogs end up at the dog shows and rubbing elbows. You'd be surprised how often you'll hear..."Oh yes, I sat next to so-and-so who breeds such-and-such." Call the local rescue and see who they know is a quality breeder. There are local animal charities and organizations -- check in with them. I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to find a good breeder when you start "barking" down the dog-focused lanes. It's when we look in retail-focused areas that we get in trouble.

 

[Darbysmom1]

Another thing to consider

Another thing to consider do not worry as much about finding a quality breeder with a litter just worry about finding a quality breeder we all know each other and know someone in our state at some point who has puppies.. I know lots of good breeders in your area and I live in Arizona sooo with that being said find a good breeder chances are they wont have a litter as most breeders have few quantity higher quality. But the important thing is they will know someone who has puppies. So if you find a great breeder who is doing everything right and they only have fawn puppies ask them if they know anyone who has brindle puppies or has bred to a brindle and is expecting puppies. The dog show world is a small community once you find one breeder you should have no problem finding a puppy even if it is not from them.
Hope this makes sense.. If you are not willing to bend on color or sex maybe consider looking even further for a good puppy after emailing the breeder confirming you know they are a good breeder seeing health test results and looking at pictures online you may need to make a longer trip out of it..? Worst case if you havent found anything by May Nationals are in Kentucky .. you can travel over and see the best dogs and breeders in the country..
Also like was mentioned before seldon does a show breeder get a litter where the entire litter is show quality we could only wish to be so lucky ...

 

[dsgordon]

I have received a couple of emails replies from the boxer clubs I contacted. None have specifically known of a breeder expecting a litter but each has provided an additional name to contact. I am waiting to see if I get a response from those contacts.

Despite the negative feedback regarding searching the internet for a breeder. I have continued contacting each one as I locate them. Sometimes the only contact info is email but for others they have provided a phone number. I am waiting for some to return my call or email. Now my efforts by internet have not been totally without good results. Yes I have found more BYB and some even have or are expecting litters. But I have also found listings of breeders who belong to boxer clubs. These were identical listings to the others not just bragging sites. They did usually have links to personal sites which is nice to see their dogs and awards. Rather than totally ruling out the internet as a way to find a good breeder. IMHO I think it is more important that you be very cautious and selective regarding the contacts and breeders you find on the internet or anywhere for that matter. Something this site has a wealth of information regarding. Admittedly though the number of bad you find will probably greatly outweigh the number of good. But for me personally I am just looking for one, hopefully the right one.

The good news so far is through the contact numbers I have located on the internet. I had a couple of conversations with breeders in my area that are members of the local boxer club. They were very enjoyable and informative. They also have helped greatly to provide a contrast to the conversations I have had with breeders who don't health test or take any other considerations into account when breeding. The best lead so far is one of the breeders who I had a great conversation with is expecting her dam to go into heat soon. She has not finalized the selection of a sire but one of her choices is a brindle. I am also learning that in some cases their is a debate over exactly what is considered acceptable results for some health tests. From our conversation she is being very selective regarding health results and for me that can only be a good thing. I left my contact information and I hope she gets back to me. I plan to follow up at the end of March anyway.

So at least for breeders in the local club I think my name is out there. I have talked to two or possible three members (Not sure if the breeder my vet referred is a member) and emailed at least two. It has crossed my mind that if the club members actually did talk together they would be saying that guy Dave contacted me too. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. I think the best thing for now is to wait and see if anyone gets back to me. Although I may try finding and contacting breeders from clubs that are further away.

As too my preference for a brindle I think that everyone must have a color preference even if includes both fawn and brindle and isn't having a standard about preferences? None of the breeders that I talked too seemed at all taken back by my desire for a brindle. My preference is health and temperament but it also includes color. The pup doesn't have to be flashy or fit an exact picture. I am not looking for anything perfect. Hell Monty was far from perfect but the only thing wrong with him for me was he didn't have a long life.
That's why I am still searching and being more selective in choosing a breeder.

 

[Althea]

Glad to hear you are finding results! And if it makes you feel any better, I only adopt white boxers! I very much have a color preference! Mainly because I see them as an ambassador for that color and perfect for getting attention paid to the fact that they've been considered unwanted and killed over the years.

Can't wait to hear when you find the right breeder and see pics of your new pup! appicon