White puppies put down?

[JulieM]

If culling puppies were considered animal cruelty, then anyone who euthanizes a dog would also be practicing animal cruelty. "Culling" does not mean abusing, mistreating, neglecting or otherwise harming the animal in the sense of animal cruelty laws. It does not even necessarily mean killing (although with white Boxers that is the most common meaning), the veterinary medicine denotation is simply reducing the number of animals. So no, I don't think an animal cruelty argument would have any merit in the culling of white Boxer puppies.

 

[Boo]

Matthew, I enjoyed reading your posts. They gave me a lot to think about. We have made some inquiries here in NSW about white boxers. The response, when we've had one has been pretty much "reputable breeders cull their whites". Fair enough, it is their right to do what they believe is best for the breed. Why is does there seem to be a huge difference in attitudes about whites between America and Australia?

 

[Marimat]

Adele and list

I guess in truth I can only theorise as to the differences between the US and Australia when it comes to the attitude to whites.

My belief is that many breeders here are genuinely scared of melanoma (very malignant skin tumours for Eddies mom who asked earlier). We have the highest incidence of melanoma in the world, not only in humans but in dogs as well.

Some use that to hang on to.

Aussie breeders also use the deafness/blindness argument but further to that some Aussie breeders believe there is a link between white and aggression. I haven't heard that one out of the US to date and haven't seen it myself and find it very unlikely such a link exists.

Numbers would also play a part, there are FAR fewer boxer breeders in Australia and to date I'd say most are from the old school.

I also know for a fact that there are breeders in NSW NOT culling whites but saying they are publically to avoid being scorned by their peers. I know at least 4 breeders personally who do this. Not too strong of character IMO but then I don't give a hoot what people think like most seem to Just go to any large pet store (no names please) from time to time and see the white boxers in there being sold as "rare white boxers" and you can figure out that someone is keeping them.

Also bear in mind the fact that most of the news we get out of the US is from the Internet and there are FAR more US boxer people with access. We are still way behind when it comes to Internet Access per capita and as I said before we have far less breeders anyway so the story is not entirely as it seems.

I can tell you for a fact that the tide is turning with it, slowly. Most younger/newer breeders I know are not culling whites but by the same token you won't hear about them because they don't have websites etc.

Having said that and what has passed before I stick by my right to keep my whites, sell them on spay/neuter contracts and be excessively picky on where they go.

But I still can't find reason reason to berate breeders who cull when they believe it is for the best. It's like the Good Samaritan Act. You can't get in trouble for trying to help someone at the scene of an accident if you think you are doing what's best. Even if you are wrong, you are only trying to help. There is a correlation there if one chooses to see it

Matthew

 

[Debbie Magon]

I agree Matt. The tide is turning and the old diehard breeders are starting to leave us younger ones alone. I kept a white from my last litter , she did have a few patches of brindle, and no one came onto me about it. I was honestly expecting it, as word had leaked, as it often does in the show world. No one seemed too concerned and the pup was very lucky in so much as she went to the most amazing family with one of her litter brothers. I do not have to lie awake at night wondering about her, or stand in the scorching New Zealand sun and worry if she has no adequate shelter or drinking water. She is truly loved, many are just not so lucky. She is fortunately not deaf , so she can live a pretty normal life and the owners had her speyed as per required. All in all I probably will keep another white, but please believe me, when I say this little girl is lucky. There are not too many people I would feel happy with taking a white puppy.As a breeder I have seen that culling whites can sometimes be better for the pup in the long run.I will not appologise for culling and I probably will still do so in the future if I have more than 1 white in a litter. In an ideal world we either wouldnt end up with white pups or we would have fabulous owners for them. Sorry people, this is not an ideal world.

 

[Christian C.]

I've read this thread with great interest in light of the fact that our family first got involved with boxers because my soft-hearted grandmother couldn't bear to hear that the white puppies would be culled (see earlier post). I've been especially interested in hearing about the thinking in other countries, as I am in America. I am all for responsible placement of white puppies as an alternative, but with an emphasis on RESPONSIBLE--on the part of the breeder and the new owner.

My understanding is that this means they come with a spay/neuter contract (which I also understand should always be standard for pet puppies, which whites invariably are, right?). Not to throw fuel on the fire, but I've heard of whites being bred to whites--what is the reasoning behind that? An attempt to get more of the "rare white boxers"? Again, I don't mean to ruffle feathers but I am genuinely curious.

 

[Eddie's mom]

As you probably saw a few posts back. My Eddie came from white parents. I do not know why they did it, honestly I never asked. They know about the deafness chances, and they also told me when I got Eddie to use sunscreen or make sure he has shade.
I chose to get Eddie from them because I know them personally, and I know Eddie's parents, they are such good dogs, great temperments, so I thought that Eddie would be a great dog too......and he is (proud mom).
Maybe someday I will bring it up and ask them why they did it.

 

[Pockets]

I will probably get ripped for this but here goes.
Let's not talk Boxers just dogs in general.
Breeders are out there to do one thing, to better the breed
and to try and obtain the perfect breed specimen.
The breed standard is set forth by what ever organization you
are registering under.
In our case white boxers are not to the standard set forth.
There for they are removed from the breeding "pool"
In this case by culling.
(yes I know this sounds cold and cruel, believe me I think it is)
But that is the reason for culling any animal that doesn't
conform to the standard. This was a more common practice 20 years ago than it is today.
But anyway that is the cold reason behind it.
All breeds have people like us that don't agree with culling.
People that love the breed whatever the color:D
Matt

 

[kassa]

I'd be cautious about relying on the Texas
rescue population statistics for several
reasons.

First of all, it's a rescue population, and
those statistics are seriously skewed,
probably because a deaf dog is going to be
harder to train for the average pet owner,
who will give up the dog in frustration.

Over the years on various boxer lists every
poll taken among breeders puts the rate of
deaf whites at closer to 8-12%.

Also, there is a serious geographical difference
in the ability to place white puppies. In Texas,
one rescue group had a hearing white dog for
nearly two years, as I recall, as they simply
could not home it. It was perfectly friendly
and would have been an easy placement had
it been fawn or brindle. But no takers.

Conversely, I live in New England, and most of
us end up with waiting lists for whites. I've only
produced 4, and all can hear just fine. One lives
with me and has been the healthiest dog of
my acquaintance. There even appear to be homes
for the deaf pups, usually to homes that have
previously had a deaf dog. Most of the dogs in
our rescue program are juvenile plain fawn males.
White adults are scooped up pretty quickly.

It makes sense that in more extreme
weather areas (Aus. and NZ, and even Texas)
local populations of whites ARE more prone to
burning and skin disorders, and this will influence
local opinion.

I think the rest of it is cultural, however, passed
on from breeder to novice.

And to clarify one other thing, culling is simply the
act of removing from the gene pool. Spay/neuter
is culling, too.

 

[kassa]

Oh, and for what it's worth, the High In Trial
(Top scorer in obedience competition) boxer
at the American Boxer Club National
specialty earlier this month was white, as
was at least one winner in agility.

It was a thrill for those who feel whites get
a bum rap, and extremely annoying to those
who would rather they disappeared

 

[TheOriginalP]

Wow! I haven't checked back for a few weeks and ... holy smokes ... the debate rages on! And it is far more in-depth than I had imagined.

Matthew, thanks for your comments. You are the first who has presented statistical evidence rather than purely ancedotal evidence. I'm not sure I agree with all of what you say, but you have raised some thought provoking points that I previously had not considered. Also thanks for your comments on the history of white boxers. Very interesting.

Unfortunately, my quest for a puppy is on hold at the moment. :( My condo association must grant written approval to keep pets and getting approval (or any kind of response at all, actually!) has been painfully slow! Supposedly, there have been complaints from other residents in the complex. Quite frankly, I was not even aware that there were any dogs in the complex for the first 10 months I lived here, so what anyone is complaining about is beyond me. I'm still working on it though!

In any case, I am enjoying this discussion and will most likely have more to say after I have further investigated some of what I have read here.