We have three beautiful Boxers: (Scamp/Male/6 years), (Ally/Female/5 years), (Saint/Male/3 years). Saint is the son of Scamp and Ally. In March of 2008, we had Scamp neutered due to medical problems. Ally is spayed and has been for 3 years. Saint was intact. He was neutered a week ago and is currently being boarded at the vet’s office. Recently, and prior to Saint being neutered, the males got into fights. They have never fought before. I had trouble separating them. So far, there have been three incidents. We had always kept their food bowl down for them to access when they wanted. Saint had started doing some growling when Scamp was at the bowl. The vet (not my regular vet) told me that I should feed them separately. I fed them in three different rooms. I made a mistake by letting Scamp out of his room when he was done. Saint was still eating and there was just a baby gate in the door. They started fighting. I finally got the baby gate out of the door and the door closed. I had taken Saint to the vet to make sure he was OK. He just had some bruising around his mouth. When I brought him home, I put him in his kennel/crate. (These are the metal crates and are 42”long x 28”wide x 31”high.) The kennels/crates have always been right beside each other (touching), and Saint has always been in the middle kennel. I left them in there for a bit and ran an errand. All was quiet. When I got home, the two males started fighting each other through the kennel (the metal kennels). I had a hard time getting one of the dogs outside so I could separate them. Both males got their mouths bloodied a bit by the metal grates of the kennels. I had previously been successful in letting them be together in the back yard after one of the incidents. So, I was walking Saint. When I opened the gate to return him to the yard, he and Scamp started fighting again. I got them apart. I have since been told (by a trainer I called, but don’ know) to keep them separate at all times. So, I had moved one kennel upstairs and one has kennel time, and then the other. Is it true that they will always have to be separated? This seems such a sad way for a dog to live their life. We should all be able to spend time together as a family enjoying each other. They are wonderful, loving, and such funny Boxers. My husband is currently working at a job that keeps him deployed out of the country for a portion of the year and was not home when these incidents occurred. He will be home and we will bring Saint home and re-introduce him into the family. As you can imagine, I have been very upset with this whole situation. I have talked with trainers, read literature and websites, and talked with the vet. I have sent e-mails to the Dog Whisperer. I even attempted to talk to an animal behaviorist at our local veterinarian college. They wanted me to bring both dogs in to observe, but I am unable to do that by myself. I have heard several different versions of what I should do. I have also heard some discouraging remarks, such as: "your younger dog will kill your older dog" to "they will always have to be in separate rooms from each other". Is this true? Has anyone else experienced this problem? I am very sad with the current situation. I miss having Saint at home, and can't imagine not having all three of them together.
Two Males Fighting
- Thread starter heishman
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lhsdavis
Boxer Booster
I too have the same problem, but between male and female boxers. When Noah turned 3, after I had him neutered, they started fighting. I think alot of it had to do with Noah just tired of ashley being the boss. We tried several times to re-introduce them together but ended up resulting in fights. I took them to a behaviorlist, and alot had to do with my female not seeing me as the alpha, so she doesnt listen even if I tried to break them up. After several hundred dollars in vets bills, and the stress of watching them fight, and then the stress it was taking on them, we just keep them separate. The one thing I do see it stresses them out as bad as us. Its not a perfect solution, but it works for us, and I cant see giving either one of them up to someone else. They do get along outside, however, which is the weirdest part. After about 6 months of being separated outside also, my Noah started letting Ashley out of her fence(smart boy can open gates) to be with him. After a couple of heart attacks with that, I realized that they had come to some kind of truce outside because I really do think they love each other but its something to do with the house/family thing that triggers it. They really missed playing with each other too, so they are allowed to be outdoors together, otherwise Noah stays in my daughters room, kind of like its his kennel. Ashley get frantic if put in a room for long periods of time(more than an hour) and would chew the door frame so it wasnt an option for her. My 3 year old at the time it started (now 6) also learned quickly the importance of keeping noah and ashley separated. Noah gets his family time when ashley is put up for a short time, and he sleeps with my daughter (13 yo) in her room. When I do put the dogs out I have to put Ashley outside first because she realizes the importance of not being by the gate when I put Noah with her. Noah does not. That is kind of like a confrontation too, if she or he would be by the gate when I put the other out. Ashley will stand about 50-100 ft away when I put him in then they meet up and do their thing. I can even take them in the car together (I know really weird) with no issues. I have really just stopped trying to understand it, Ashley will be 9 this year, and Noah turned 7, and I just try to enjoy the time I have with them, and unfortunetly they wont be with me forever, so I know its not a lifetime thing (and if it was I would do that too). I just couldnt see them being with anyone else but us. And if it has something to do with one of your boxers not being neutered, I would still be careful to reintroduce them because the hormones are still in their system for months after their neuter if that is an issue. A behaviorlist can help, every situation is different, and maybe they can figure out a solution. I wish you luck and I know its a very stressful situation all around. And to add, yes if it comes to food/treats/bones, keep them separate because its an excuse to start something. That was how it all started in our situation.
EAO76
Boxer Insane
It’s not good to have one neutered and one unaltered. It’s pretty commonly accepted by behavior experts that this will play a role in aggression between dogs. And surprisingly many times it’s the altered male who is the aggressor. I would keep the males completely separated for about 6 weeks from the time the last one was neutered. At that point the testosterone should be out of both their systems. And you may be able to have some harmony again.
It’s also pretty common for problems to start when the youngest dog turns three (this is when they are finally considered an adult). So it may be that your youngest is finally mature and is looking to challenge the other male’s place in the pack. Also many times you are creating the problems and don’t even realize it. The way you run your household contributes to much of what goes on. It will take a professional to look at things objectively and give their opinion about your particular pack (people & dogs included).
I also have two males & a female. Our males do not always get along and we have had some fights but it’s not so bad that we have to keep them completely separated. We do keep them apart a lot though. We feed totally apart, never give treats together, high value toys and treats are kept separate and they are NEVER left alone loose together. Additionally during the 1st 72 hrs after a fight there is a very good chance of another fight occurring (it can take days for the adrenaline levels to go back to normal) so they need to be managed very carefully after each incident.
I wouldn’t bother with the dog whisper I know people think he has some magic but he doesn’t. Much of what you see on TV is not reality. I have worked with a vet who is board certified in behavior (there is only about 25 of these vets in the world) here in Los Angeles. She has many people coming to her AFTER they worked with Cesar Milan. Many of these clients say their dog’s problems are worse or haven’t changed from Cesar’s “help”. I agree with some of his advice (dogs need exercise & a job) and there is no doubt that he has a personal talent and way with dogs BUT once he is gone nothing changes. The average person can not replicate his methods.
You’re MUCH better off using a local behaviorist that is trained in dealing with this specific problem and that uses positive training methods. Maybe reach out to your local Boxer rescue and ask if they can give you referrals. But ALWAYS check the behaviorists for yourself. Just because someone recommends them doesn’t always mean they are good. I work in rescue and have had the pleasure of working with many trainers & behaviorists and I can tell you they are not all created equal.
Good luck!
It’s also pretty common for problems to start when the youngest dog turns three (this is when they are finally considered an adult). So it may be that your youngest is finally mature and is looking to challenge the other male’s place in the pack. Also many times you are creating the problems and don’t even realize it. The way you run your household contributes to much of what goes on. It will take a professional to look at things objectively and give their opinion about your particular pack (people & dogs included).
I also have two males & a female. Our males do not always get along and we have had some fights but it’s not so bad that we have to keep them completely separated. We do keep them apart a lot though. We feed totally apart, never give treats together, high value toys and treats are kept separate and they are NEVER left alone loose together. Additionally during the 1st 72 hrs after a fight there is a very good chance of another fight occurring (it can take days for the adrenaline levels to go back to normal) so they need to be managed very carefully after each incident.
I wouldn’t bother with the dog whisper I know people think he has some magic but he doesn’t. Much of what you see on TV is not reality. I have worked with a vet who is board certified in behavior (there is only about 25 of these vets in the world) here in Los Angeles. She has many people coming to her AFTER they worked with Cesar Milan. Many of these clients say their dog’s problems are worse or haven’t changed from Cesar’s “help”. I agree with some of his advice (dogs need exercise & a job) and there is no doubt that he has a personal talent and way with dogs BUT once he is gone nothing changes. The average person can not replicate his methods.
You’re MUCH better off using a local behaviorist that is trained in dealing with this specific problem and that uses positive training methods. Maybe reach out to your local Boxer rescue and ask if they can give you referrals. But ALWAYS check the behaviorists for yourself. Just because someone recommends them doesn’t always mean they are good. I work in rescue and have had the pleasure of working with many trainers & behaviorists and I can tell you they are not all created equal.
Good luck!
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garvinsmum
Completely Boxer Crazy
I understand your problem and I feel for you.
My best possible advice to you is to not attempt to handle this alone, get in a qualified veterinary behaviourist. You need one who will come to you, if they won't don't bother with them. You need to expect it to get expensive though.
I can give you an idea of the kind of thing I learned from this experience, but the support from a qualified person has no substitute.
I have to say up front though, that I could not solve my problem and had to find a new home for one of my dogs. The scenario was different though, and as much as it pains me to admit it, Bailey was much happier in his new home. My skinny anxious boy I couldn't get a pound on turned into a little tubby within a month.
Certainly it would seem that the issue is that your younger dog has reached maturity and is challenging the older dog for top position.
Feeding them seperately is the first one, which you are doing.
The problem is determining who really is 'top dog' and reinforcing it.
The first thing I was shown was for me to do some simple obedience work, to be done daily to establish that I was number one.
Then it's a matter of reinforcing the pecking order amongst the dogs (once you are pretty sure what it is). Problem is this can generate fights so you really do need help with it.
I was also a lone female (OH works away, some times for months) and was trying to deal with 2 strong males fighting.
As your OH will be back with you for a while he can help you, but you really need to make sure you can get to no 1 yourself.
Now they are both nuetered it may may life easier and you may find you can establish a clear heirachy without too many problems.
From my experience though I don't think I would let a situation go on where the dogs had to be seperated forever. The dogs will be unhappy and anxious let alone the people. If it cannot be sorted you may have to consider rehoming your younger male.
I wish you all the best, this is so hard to deal with.
My best possible advice to you is to not attempt to handle this alone, get in a qualified veterinary behaviourist. You need one who will come to you, if they won't don't bother with them. You need to expect it to get expensive though.
I can give you an idea of the kind of thing I learned from this experience, but the support from a qualified person has no substitute.
I have to say up front though, that I could not solve my problem and had to find a new home for one of my dogs. The scenario was different though, and as much as it pains me to admit it, Bailey was much happier in his new home. My skinny anxious boy I couldn't get a pound on turned into a little tubby within a month.
Certainly it would seem that the issue is that your younger dog has reached maturity and is challenging the older dog for top position.
Feeding them seperately is the first one, which you are doing.
The problem is determining who really is 'top dog' and reinforcing it.
The first thing I was shown was for me to do some simple obedience work, to be done daily to establish that I was number one.
Then it's a matter of reinforcing the pecking order amongst the dogs (once you are pretty sure what it is). Problem is this can generate fights so you really do need help with it.
I was also a lone female (OH works away, some times for months) and was trying to deal with 2 strong males fighting.
As your OH will be back with you for a while he can help you, but you really need to make sure you can get to no 1 yourself.
Now they are both nuetered it may may life easier and you may find you can establish a clear heirachy without too many problems.
From my experience though I don't think I would let a situation go on where the dogs had to be seperated forever. The dogs will be unhappy and anxious let alone the people. If it cannot be sorted you may have to consider rehoming your younger male.
I wish you all the best, this is so hard to deal with.
Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it. I thought I had posted a reply a couple of days ago, but I guess I didn't do it right, so I will try again.
lhsdavis: I would be interested in hearing more details on how you keep your Boxers separated all the time. I did that for the days when the males started fighting until I took Saint in to be neutered. It seemed that it just made them kind of anxious and upset. We only have one fenced-in area in our yard. How do you make it work?
EA076: After I wrote the Dog Whisperer (I wrote 4 separate e-mails), I received an auto-reply e-mail that stated that Cesar receives so many e-mails for advice that it is impossible for him to personally help each individual. They do advise you to seek help in your area and refer you to their resources page for further information. I was unable to get a phone consult with the behaviorist at the veternarian school at our local college. I had asked if they would come to our home. They say we would have to bring the dogs in. Since my husband is away so much, I am unable to do that.
garvinsmum: I'm so sorry you had to re-home your baby. But, it sounds like you found a loving home. I would be broken hearted if we have to do that. I love these fur kids so much.
Again, thank you all for your input.
lhsdavis: I would be interested in hearing more details on how you keep your Boxers separated all the time. I did that for the days when the males started fighting until I took Saint in to be neutered. It seemed that it just made them kind of anxious and upset. We only have one fenced-in area in our yard. How do you make it work?
EA076: After I wrote the Dog Whisperer (I wrote 4 separate e-mails), I received an auto-reply e-mail that stated that Cesar receives so many e-mails for advice that it is impossible for him to personally help each individual. They do advise you to seek help in your area and refer you to their resources page for further information. I was unable to get a phone consult with the behaviorist at the veternarian school at our local college. I had asked if they would come to our home. They say we would have to bring the dogs in. Since my husband is away so much, I am unable to do that.
garvinsmum: I'm so sorry you had to re-home your baby. But, it sounds like you found a loving home. I would be broken hearted if we have to do that. I love these fur kids so much.
Again, thank you all for your input.
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