Since they have been discussed before (well, in the almost 3 years I have been on the boards) and since I don't consider there use to be - deliberate use of devices or practices that cause or have the potential to cause physical trauma and teaching a dog what not to do by causing it discomfort and pain - then this is news to me.
Then you obviously don't understand the underlying principles of training. If a choker didn't cause at least discomfort to the dog, it wouldn't work as a training tool. That is basic learning theory, operant conditioning, positive punishment. Something the dog finds unpleasant (the "correction") is applied so that the behavior (the dog ignoring the cue) will not recur.
(And you will note that past discussions on chokers were either redirected or stopped, as well.)
Just out of interest, anybody want to have a guess at what type of device doesn't "have the potential to cause physical trauma" when used incorrectly?
(Raising hand) I know! I know! :D
It's a clicker. Even if your timing is 10 seconds off, you're not going to do any harm to the dog, *and* you're not going to accidentally inhibit behaviors you want to continue. It's win-win.
My personal feeling about check/choke/correction chains is that the monitors or the owner should allow it to be talked about.
My personal feeling is that if you want to talk about chokers, start your own board.
OK, sorry, that was more than a little smart-alecky. There are actually already plenty of boards out there where you can discuss using chokers.
My reasoning behind this is that are a lot people using these devices out there, many on this board I am sure. All show dogs I have seen the AKC shows use them from that I can see.
Show collars are slip collars, the difference is they are not generally used as choke chains are used. You can't give a dog a correction in the ring. They are simply an item of control, that are easy to take on and off (in some breeds they take the collar completely off when stacked for the judge's examination; also handlers who have several dogs need to be able to get them in and out of crates quickly), and distract from the dog as little as possible. You'll notice that the show collars are thin, the chain ones are nowhere near as heavy as a "traditional" training chain choke collar. You want the judge to see the dog, not the collar - which is also why the nylon ones only come in dog colors like black, brown, and white, and not red, blue, hot pink, etc.
And there is a proper way to use these devices. By shunning out and not allowing people to talk about this matter doesn't make it any better it only makes it worse. People can be using these devices wrong which CAN cause severe damage, and they can't come to this board of knowledgeable dog owners for help.
Back to my personal feelings, the proper way to use a choker is to throw it in the garbage. Why on earth would I want to teach anyone to use such a device?
Not talking about something or mentioning it doesn't make it better, and it certainty doesn't show the other side of the story as to why some people feel these devices are not needed.
and
I think without discussion bad training habits will continue. Many people come to this forum with the best intentions for their pets and may have no idea they are using improper methods and we have an opportunity to enlighten and clarify.
Telling people how to use a choker and discussing why we feel coercion is not a proper training method are two completely different things. It is, in fact, entirely possible to 'show the other side of the story' without promoting the use of chokers - we do it all the time. Try searching the archives for many discussions on the topic, or ask the question here - not "how can I use a choker on my dog", but "what is the alternative, and why do you think it is better?" With the understanding, of course, that the discussion will not be allowed to become a promotion or defense of chokers.
Let's put the argument in a different light. We at BoxerWorld promote responsible breeding. That means that any discussions on breeding are going to focus on how to do it responsibly, and talk about why doing irresponsibly is not in the best interests of the breed. Do you think that we should also tell everyone how to make as much money as possible breeding their Boxers?
Since apparently no one can understand the rules on this topic, and since the original question has been thoroughly answered, I'm closing this thread.
