question about breeding

[JTPappy]

Julie.

This will be my final response on the "vaccine" isssue. You are right polio is no longer a problem. That's because of the vaccine! The polio virus is still alive and pandemic in North America. It exists in almost every stagnant pool of water! That's a fact. Check with the Center for Disease Control. Stop the vaccine and you will, within one generation, have an outbreak of plague proportions.

The same goes for canine diseases.
The vectors are pandemic, as long as we have feral populations of wolves, "wild" dogs,fox, coyote etc. then we will have the virus. There is no natural immunity to them.You either get the disease and have dead or damaged dogs, or dogs that recover, or you vaccinate and protect your populations. If you want further proof follow the debate in Europe where the Brits are fighting tooth and nail to prevent a relaxing of their Quarentine Laws.

As far as breeding goes. I support breeders who are trying to solve the many genetic health issues of this glorious Boxer breed. Having just come from the "big" show at Westminster I am concerned. I walked in there with a 9 year old Boxer who is in his prime. He's a little gray now. He has a touch of arthritis. But he's a full time, true working dog.

Why did the Boxer people at the show, be they breeders who had dogs there, or breeders who were present checking things out, or owners of pet Boxers, find Caesar's age remarkable? Why isn't Caesar's condition at his age the norm for Boxers? Especially the Boxers that breeders maintain and use to produce the future of the Breed?

You've referred several times to the fact that IF you found a non show Boxer with working titles who was still show quality in conforamtion that you would CONSIDER breeding to that Boxer. Please answer this question for me. If you have a show champion Boxer who cannot be a working dog at age 9, why are you breeding THAT boxer?

I agree we should not breed Boxers who are not excellent physical examples of the Breed. I want you to agree to not breed any conformation champion who cannot put in the day's work that Caesar can when they are 9 years old. Caesar is every bit as important to the Boxer Standard as is Jake or Johnny. You should be producing a Boxer who has the proven qualities of them all.

Will you agree to that?

Jim

 

[Sarah R]

Lifespans

If vaccinations and the "toxins" we feed our animals is to blame for shorter lifespans how do you explain that I have a large 14 yr.old mixed-breed who is in wonderful health. I had to put down a 121/2 yr.old Samoyed who until a few days prior to his death was the picture of health. My sister's Rottweiler lived to be 12 also and the arthritis just got too bad. My mother's mixed-breed(medium size)had kidney failure at nearly 14. My mother-in-law just lost an 18 year old mixed-breed(small)and several months ago lost a 15 year old poodle. These are all of the dogs that I have been close to in my adult life. Not a single death that wasn't mostly attributed to old age. I realize that I and my family members have been incredibly fortunate and other people have had very sad experiences with their animals. But these animals were vaccinated yearly and all on kibble diets so why did they live so long?:confused: And while I'll go along with the research that says vaccinations last more than a year, while working at our local shelter I saw too many dogs and puppies die from parvo and distemper to go along with the adage that vaccinations aren't neccessary.
I'm on my first boxer so hopefully I'll be able to add him to the above list in 14 years or so but in my heart I know that won't be the case. He has already been to the vet more in his short life for health problems then my mutt and Samoyed had in their whole lives. He's not poorly breed either. He beats Julie's criteria that she gave someone in an earlier post of having at least 10 champions out of 14 dogs in the last 3 generations. And I believe completely that his breeder is conscientious and doing it for all the right reasons, what's more there has been no in-breeding in the last 5 generation-I don't have any info further then that. I just think that for whatever reason the boxer just isn't that healthy of a breed. And please don't tell me to get another breed-I love this one, I just hope he can be around with me for longer then the norm.
lovicon

 

[Krikkit]

Hi Sarah, I can not speak for Julie of course, but I do not think Julie is saying never vaccinate - just to go sparingly. Personally, we vaccinate pups with the full puppy series, then get the 12 month booster, then play it by ear regarding further vaccinations (titre testing is great). I used to work at a shelter too and parvo, distemper etc are indeed heartbreaking. Acutally my first Boxer, Bo, had Parvo at 7 months of age and he was FULLY vaccinated - I obviously carried it home even though I used to take precautions. BTW, he survived the Parvo and we had him for 14.5 wonderful years.

It is wonderful that the dogs in your family have had such long and healthy lives I'm sorry you have had troubles with your Boxer though and hope that things get better :( We have been fortunate with our Boxers, losing our oldies in their teens, and our current babies are all fit, healthy and active (a bit too active LOL).

PS: Jim and Julie - I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread - thanks to you both

 

[Alisha Mobley]

Originally posted by JTPappy
Julie.

This will be my final response on the "vaccine" isssue.

Jim

Wait, I have questions, I would appreciate your input along with everyone elses.

I think I talked with Julie about Tyson's low thyroid problem. I am working on getting that up in the normal range without the use of meds for the rest of his life. My question is if titers are used to decide if Tyson needs to be vaccinated yearly wouldn't that be safe? If the tests show he doesn't need to be vaccinated for parvo and distemper this year wouldn't that mean he is still protected? I don't have anything against vaccinations but if tests show they don't need them then I wouldn't want to vaccinate at that time. My kids (skin) have received all their shots but unlike dogs people aren't vaccinated yearly so I have never felt it was a problem. It has always been hard for me to believe that a shot for a person can last for so long but for a dog it only lasts a year. I have always vaccinated my dogs anyway because I didn't know there was actually a way to check and see if they need it or not until recently. I'm curious about others opinions on titers and if they feel they are safe or not.

Tyson started meds about 2 1/2 weeks ago. I have since changed his diet to 1/2 the amount of kibble he's used to and the rest of his food I prepare for him myself. I can not believe the difference in him since he has started his meds. He is like a different dog and I want him to stay like this. I'm hoping to get him off the meds in about 2 weeks and his thyroid levels stay up. My plan is to keep preparing his meals myself, back off on the vaccinations, and supplement his diet. I was also told that lemon juice helps to up the levels of the thyroid. I have been adding a little bit to his water. It's hard to tell if it works because of so many changes at once but has anyone ever heard of this?

 

[JulieM]

Sorry, folks, I was gone for the weekend and didn't get a chance to check in.

Krikkit, glad someone else was enjoying this thread

Sarah, I'm glad you've been so fortunate. I don't think that every dog who is vaccinated or fed kibble will die at an early age. I do think that in general, and particularly in Boxers, routine vaccinations cause more problems than they help. Some breeds are more susceptible to certain things - take Collies and ivermectin, for example. Also, smaller dogs do tend to live longer than larger dogs as a rule - I don't think 14 in a small dog is exceptionally old (not that it's exceptionally young, either).

I also think that before dogs were fed a "100% nutritionally balanced and complete" (and loaded with preservatives) kibble, and before dogs were vaccinated 30 times before 4 months of age (counting a 7-in-1 vaccine as 7, since it's 7 vaccines in 1 needle), they lived longer. It's the same for people. Cancer, asthma, allergies, childhood diabetes - all of these things are increasing yearly. I don't think the coinciding increase in polllution, use of chemicals, preservatives, environmental toxins are unrelated.

Krikkit is right - I'm not saying don't vaccinate at all, simply because I haven't done it myself yet - but I do know several breeders that don't and haven't had problems. I do think that, if you are going to vaccinate, you should avoid the cocktail vaccinations and have single doses done, spaced three weeks or more apart, and I think you should re-vaccinate at most every three years. This is in accordance with the protocol of Cornell, a renowned Veterinary College, so it should be easier to accept. (Unless, of course, you're a vet who will be losing 25% of your income....)

Jim - since you won't be replying to the vaccination issue I won't go into it, except to say that you have your that facts you believe and I have my (contradictory) facts that I believe. Que sera, sera.

As for breeding, I can't speak for the breeders that you saw at Westminster, except to say that not everyone is as concerned with longevity as they are with status.

You've referred several times to the fact that IF you found a non show Boxer with working titles who was still show quality in conforamtion that you would CONSIDER breeding to that Boxer. Please answer this question for me. If you have a show champion Boxer who cannot be a working dog at age 9, why are you breeding THAT boxer?

Actually, I think what I said was if I found such a non-show Boxer (given that he passed his health clearances) I would absolutely breed to him, not just consider it. As for the show Boxer who cannot be a working dog - I don't think I ever said I *would* breed to that one.

I do think that, in general, if a Boxer meets the written standard of the breed, it will be able to perform the task for which it was intended. I've had this argument before. There are health variables that must be taken into consideration, which is why testing and study of pedigree is so important. If I have a 4 year-old dog who has had all his health clearances, who meets the breed standard and in my opinion can put in a full day's work, whose father, mother, grandparents etc. have all lived to 10-12-14 years, who were all physically fit until their deaths, I'm going to breed that dog. I see no reason not to.

I agree we should not breed Boxers who are not excellent physical examples of the Breed. I want you to agree to not breed any conformation champion who cannot put in the day's work that Caesar can when they are 9 years old. Caesar is every bit as important to the Boxer Standard as is Jake or Johnny. You should be producing a Boxer who has the proven qualities of them all.

Will you agree to that?

I agree to your last three sentences 100%. Beyond that, here's what I'll agree to. I'll agree not to breed any conformation champion (or any dog, for that matter) who in my opinion will not be able to put in a days' work when they are 9 years old. I won't agree to wait until they're 9 and then ask them to do the work. An important point to remember is that Caesar has been trained for this work, and has been doing this work, and has developed the physical fitness and stamina that this work requires. Most dogs, show or otherwise, while they are physically equipped to perform the work, are not conditioned to. I am physically equipped to run a marathon - but that doesn't mean I'll be able to go out tomorrow and do it. It will take training and conditioning.

OK, I've had server problems while I've been typing this reply, so it may be rambling or disjointed. Hopefully it will make sense!!

Julie

 

[JTPappy]

Alisha,

Not all of the vaccines that humans use on themselves are for life. In fact if you were vaccinated for small pox as a child and if you were to be traveling to an area that had an outbreak of it, you would probably be wise to get another vaccination for it. Other vacines have specific effective lives. So it is not odd that dogs need to receive periodic vaccinations.

As you point out, some vaccines might have a longer life than they are presently acknowledged to have. But that also works the other way too, some have been found to have shorter lives and require more frequent vaccination.
The rabies vaccine, thought to have a 3 year life has proven to have one closer to two years instead.

If a vaccine is effective longer and can be proven to be that, I have no objection to less frequent vaccination. But I want substantial proof of that.

In treating thyroid or other conditions, I'm a big fan of the "if it works, use it" school of thought. I'm just cautious of treating with holistic "programs".
All to often I've found them to be of the "wishful thinking" kind of thing. I'd keep that in mind. If medication works why wouldn't you use it? I've often wanted to throw away all the meds I take every day. However I also want to stay alive and be active. I once had a holistic healer tell me that a particular herbal and diet based treatment had been effective in treating seizures for centuries in Asia. When I looked into it I also discovered that people with seizure disorders being treated in this way had an average life span of age 35 . I'm 52. I decided to keep the pills.

Everything has to be looked at closely. We should be careful of medications and how we use them. We should also be careful of the quacks and "snake oil salesman" who prey upon us both for human and canine health problems.

Jim

 

[Alisha Mobley]

Thanks for the input

Originally posted by JTPappy
But I want substantial proof of that.

Would titers do that?

Originally posted by JTPappy

In treating thyroid or other conditions, I'm a big fan of the "if it works, use it" school of thought. I'm just cautious of treating with holistic "programs".
All to often I've found them to be of the "wishful thinking" kind of thing. I'd keep that in mind. If medication works why wouldn't you use it? I've often wanted to throw away all the meds I take every day. However I also want to stay alive and be active. I once had a holistic healer tell me that a particular herbal and diet based treatment had been effective in treating seizures for centuries in Asia. When I looked into it I also discovered that people with seizure disorders being treated in this way had an average life span of age 35 . I'm 52. I decided to keep the pills.

I'm not so much against the meds as I am concerned that something could be missing from his diet that is causing the thyroid problem. If (I understand this is probably wishful thinking on my part) he is missing something in his diet I want to correct that instead of giving in to the meds for life thing. My vet is working with me on this (she is not a holistic vet) and we are monitoring him closely (he will be tested monthly in the beginning to see where we stand). I'm still in the process of looking into the whole changing his diet thing and I would pick the pills over the change of diet any day if I thought he would have a longer life.

 

[JulieM]

Alisha,

One thing that should be noted is that vaccinations should only be given to healthy dogs (per the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture the vaccine). I'm not sure if a thyroid problem would be considered healthy or not.

I definitely would recommend switching to a three-year booster program, if you decide to keep boostering.

As for titres - there are differing opinions on these. Some feel that high levels mean the dog will be able to mount a response to a disease, and low levels mean it will not. However, some feel that a high level means the dog has recently been exposed to the disease, and has mounted a response, and a low level means the dog has not been exposed recently, and may or may not be able to mount a response.

Like diet, vaccination protocols should be individualized. I'd recommend reading and deciding what you feel is best for your dog. Read Dr. Goldstein's book (The Nature of Animal Healing) and visit Wellpet http://www.listservice.net/wellpet for information on immunity, vaccinations, etc. Check Favorite Links and Lots of Links.

I've never heard of lemon helping thyroid problems, but I have heard that kelp can boost an underactive thyroid.

Jim, if you're of the school of "if it works, use it" than why not use diet to correct a thyroid problem, if it works? I don't think you can argue that many medications have negative side-effects, especially after long-term use. While I certainly will (and do) use medications if they are truly necessary, it is very common for thyroid problems to be correct by diet. In that case, why use a medication when it's not needed? I think you would agree that a whole foods diet is healthier - for humans and dogs - wouldn't you? If the diet corrects the problems *and* improves overall health, I'd certainly say it's worth trying.

Julie

 

[JTPappy]

Julie,

I've never said I'm against treating anyhting through diet and/or supplements if they work.
I'm on record that Caesr has done very well because we are using natural supplements to treat his slight arthritis. Certainly of great importance to us.

Whole foods opens up a "whole" new can of worms wormicon, (sorry. I couldn't resist that ). Certainly for certain aspects of diet they are best. But there are foods out there that are more beneficial to us and to our dogs when they have been "processsed".
I am in favor of a "total foods" diet rather than a "whole foods" one. Look at the total picture of things. If a thyroid condition can be effectively treted by diet, go the diet route. If meds are needed to support that diet, use them.

I am against what is often a hysterical reaction that blames all our health problems on the modern way we live. I know a little bit about the practical application of "natural" ways of life. My grandfather was born in Australia back in the 1890s. He was raised on a horse "ranch" with Native Australians, Aborigines, as part of the extended station "family". He was into a lot of close to nature stuff. He believed in the "Dreamtime". He was also the best dog trainer I've ever known. He "talked" dogs into learning. He wasn't about to give up the benefits of modern life OR modern medicine either.

One of the things Pop, who lived to be almost 90, used to say when the whole "natural" thing got going in the 1960s was, "Yeah, and it was "natural" for half the kids born to die before they became adults". So that's what I'm saying, examine things like medications and modern foods. Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Be realistic, things like vaccines, medications and modern food processing are not in and of themselves bad. Holistic medicine, "natural" foods and such are not sufficent to support life as we know it. You need to find the balance.

Jim

 

[Sarah R]

? for Julie

Julie, knowing nothing of titres and the differing opinions you gave means I now know less-what is your opinion on what the reading would mean? I realize that I am being lazy in not researching this myself but I am deferring to your judgement as you obviously have some experience with this. Thanks!