Prey-Model Diet?

[kayboxer]

Okay, question: Did he eat all those ribs in one meal or did you put it in the frige after he ate half? If they only eat 2 lbs. of meat a day, that looks like more than 2 lbs. I am THIS CLOSE to trying it tonight! Just trying to get some last minute info. Also, do you take the skin off your chickens or leave them on. I know, it can be hard for them to digest in the beginning, but it is also a fatty source so for boxers trying to watch weight wouldn't it be better to take the skin off?
I think I'm getting the jist of this after reading tons of sites and recipes. The only thing is, I just ordered two new bags of food!! :eek: DH is going to pass out!

 

[kayboxer]

Oh man, that just makes it harder! So, in other words, you count the meat only in the 2 lbs. a day? Bones don't count in amount in weight that you feed?

 

[gmacleod]

3lbs would be a LOT of food for a 60lb boxer I'd say 2lb is closer to average, and even that (usually) only for dogs up to 2, maybe 3 years old. Most dogs' (like most people's) metabolisms slow down a little bit after the first flush of youth My guy Henri, for example, ate around 1kg of raw food (2.2lb) daily up until about 2 years old. Then that started being too much, and he's progressively been reduced to about 750-800 grams daily (about 1.65-1.75lb). His correct weight is about 65lb, btw, and he's nearly 5.

For adult dogs, the rough rule of thumb is that they'll need between 2-3% of their ideal body weight in food daily. But again, like people, some have faster-than-average metabolisms (especially the young) and need a little more than that. And some others run on the smell of an oily rag - and need less food or else they'll quickly become overweight.

Anyway, the upshot of all that is that I'd suggest starting at an amount just a little under 2lb daily for a 60lb dog. See how that amount suits, and adjust as required.

Oh - and with certain sorts of foods, like ribs, that are really very boney - then you are likely to feed a greater amount in weight. So those 2 ribs in deyiylos' pictures might well have weighed more than 1lb (the average meal) - but the dog isn't actually going to consume the entire bone with a meal like that. So there needs to be a little bit of compensating somewhere along the line. With averagly boney meals, no need at all. But ribs are a bit of a special case that's somewhere between consumable meal and recreational bone. Does that make sense? In 90% of cases, YES you count the bone as part of the weight of the meal. But with extremely boney items like this - well, you just make a small compensation. It's not rocket science though - just a small handful of meat after he's finished with the ribs. Or even easier, just add an extra handful of meat to the next meal. Generally, ribs are something most people feed occassionally, not daily. So it's really not a big deal to compensate for the limited meat here.

 

[kayboxer]

THANK YOU GMACLEOD! I was about ready to go get a paper bag so I didn't hyperventilate. I have one more question about the bone thing. If you feed a bony meal one meal, do you usually do a meaty meat the next since their diet is supposed to consist of so much meat and bone?

 

[gmacleod]

Yes, if you've fed a really boney meal, then it makes sense for the next one to be extra-meaty or to have a good amount of offal in it. But most of the time, I think people generally feed raw meaty bones that are already sufficiently meaty that more doesn't need to be added.

I, for example, very often do buy whole chickens or bunnies (and I usually do take the breast meat off the chickens for myself). And just cut it up into 4-6 meal-sized portions to be fed as and when. There's no need to be balancing out the meat versus the bone in that case, it's already done. And when it comes to meats such as beef or lamb (i.e. from relatively large creatures, whose bones aren't easily consumable), often it's offal, ground or cheap cuts of meat fed alternately with boney things like ribs. With turkey, I'm usually feeding legs (OK, maybe there's a bit of an excess of meat compared to bone there, but it's not a drastic excess), which makes a large meal - so the next is usually a little small.

This falls down a little when you come to feed meats like beef - because that's actually an animal a bit too big (with too big bones) to be easily consumed. Ribs are probably about the easiest beef bone to deal with - but even then, most dogs only consume part of them (they still have a place in the diet though, due to being such excellent teeth and gum conditioners).

Anyway, in the main, most people will do things like feed beef or pork or lamb or venison (meat from big creatures) along with, or alternated with, the sorts of boney things like chicken frames or backs or necks that don't really have much meat. Those are items that can be obtained for next to nothing - and since they're easier to consume than most bones from large animals, they serve a very useful purpose in balancing out the meat and bone. Doesn't have to be all in the same meal, of course.

That satisfies the need for variety, balances out a bit the cost of the more expensive meat (beef, etc, is usually more expensive than poultry), and is much more easily consumed by the dog than the harder bones of large animals.

 

[kayboxer]

Okay! Great! I feel I'm ready to try this. After toying with the idea for about a month and being superglued to my desk chair all day (my rear end is asleep) I'm ready to give it a whirl! I spoke with the head of the house (I let him think that anyway, you know, an ego booster) and he was really curious as to where we would feed them, I said a plastic sheet in the kitchen. And then he made the comment about not having chicken bones because they are bad and will splinter. Well, I told him everything I knew and have read and he actually said whatever I want to do is fine. I think what made the turning point was how much better for their teeth is is and how it can eliminate the "doggy odor". So, I think I might try to run to the store to look for some meat cuts and then try to get to the packing plant tomorrow. I'm kind of excited about this! Now, anybody wanna buy two bags of dog food? I can't thank you enough Gmacleod, for your patience and understanding in my insecurity on the subject. I know you get tired of answering the same questions over and over, but I truely appreciate it. I will let you know how things go!

 

[gmacleod]

Good luck!

Just as a suggestion, you might want to choose chicken as an easy meat to begin with. That's really just because it's cheap, it's readily available, and the bones are easily consumable. Or turkey is another decent option for the same reasons.

Generally speaking, it's best to start out feeding one meat type. That can mean any parts of the carcass from that animal, offal included. But just the one species for the first 2-3 weeks. That makes a nice easy introduction to raw feeding for both you and the dog And once you're both settled on that, you start adding new meat types - one by one (for maybe a week each). The reason for one by one is just in case a particular meat doesn't happen to agree with your dog or that she happens to hate, so you will know easily which one it is. Same would go for any vegetables you choose to feed. LOL - nothing worse than entire meals going to waste because your dog can't stand kidney, or celery, and not being able to figure out which thing it is causing the offence

 

[gmacleod]

No, absolutely no need for grains. One of the major advantages to feeding raw is getting that junk out of the dog's diet. LOL - there may be some doubt about whether or not dogs should have some fruit/vegetable matter in their diet, but there's no doubt at all about grains. They're a completely foreign foodstuff that should be avoided.

As for vegetables... I don't feed a lot, nor more often than occassionally. Actually, I think the last time Henri had any veggies may have been over a year ago LOL. I do give him fruit a little more often - he's quite fond of things like apples.

But generally, if you're going to feed veggies, then a reasonable balance between green leafy types such as spinach and below-ground types is recommended. As you've found with the carrots, certain individuals may not do well with specific vegetables. Cruciferous types like cabbage and broccoli do tend to cause excess gas... and members of the nightshade family (such as potatoes) aren't too good for arthritis sufferers, in addition to being very starchy. If you do want to include vegetables in his diet (and bear in mind that many people believe this completely unneccessary), don't go overboard. They should never end up as a significant portion of the diet.

Oh - and vegetables are best served raw but pulverised (put them in a blender or food processor). Cooking just destroys nutrients. They do need to be pulverised though, because dog's don't actually have the digestive systems needed to digest plant matter on their own. If you want the veggies to do anything more than travel the intestinal tract unscathed, you've got to reduce them to a form that will allow at least partial digestion (one of the main reasons many people think them a waste of time).

 

[kayboxer]

How do you get them to eat raw pulvarized veggies? I can't get them to eat them raw now (along with my youngest son). Do I add something for flavor? I spoke with my mother a few minutes ago, and told her I was going to try this. She of course said "make sure you feed them veggies!" I told her I wasn't really planning on veggies and she about had a cow! "They need those vitamins and antioxidents to help prevent cancer!" I asked how many wolves actually eat vegetables. She came back with, "they eat vegetation. Mine are constantly grazing in the back yard." I told her that's all they need is a back yard with grass. My mother, gotta love her but at times....grrrr... Anyway, I might try a few veggies if I can find a way to get them to eat them. I will definately try the fruits though. I didn't know potatoes were bad for dogs with arthritis! Good thing to know! Even sweet potatoes? (I love those).

 

[gmacleod]

No, no problem with sweet potatoes. They're not a member of the nightshade family Things you might be tempted to feed that are nightshade members are potatoes, tomatoes, capsicum and eggplant. Then there's the poisonus stuff such as belladonna, but I doubt you're any more likely to give that to a dog than eat it yourself. Nightshade members aggravate arthritis in people too, btw (worth knowing should you ever suffer from it).

As for how to get dogs to eat veggies - well, in some cases, you just can't. Some others seem to quite like them. Things you can try if you're intent on feeding them include hiding small amounts in ground meat and offal. Or giving them frozen (Henri seems to like them better this way - I just freeze the mushed veggies in ice cube trays, then add a cube or two to his dinner). But still, there are some dogs you're never going to persuade to consume vegetables Only one way to find out how your dog likes them. But I wouldn't stress too much about it either way. This is very much a minor part of the diet, and very likely completely unneccessary.