Minature Boxers

[Marimat]

Originally posted by Lorianne
Just imagine years ago if someone didn't play around with the breed there would not be boxers. Originally, wasn't bulldogs used to create a boxer?

Yes, but they were not like the British Bulldogs of today, they were taller, very boxer like dogs

Originally posted by Lorianne
I do understand about having to do it properly because now we rules and regulations and years ago they didn't.

Yes they did. The first boxer standard was written in 1895, the same year that the Boxer Klub Munchen was formed.

The first entry into the stud book was not until 1904 when Flocki (No 1) was entered. No dogs before this time were considered to fit the standard enough to be included.

So they worked for 9 years, with a standard, before any dog was considered to be a boxer

Originally posted by Lorianne
My understanding of making a boxer smaller would add years to their lives.

No. The only way anyone is going to get a miniature boxer is to introduce another breed. The genes the boxer has now govern that it can only be so big or so small. The introduction of a different breed will over time introduce hybrid vigour as the progeny of any such cross breeding will be hybrids.

To hear that you have had dogs that die of heart disease is no surprise at all, it is nothing to do with size it is due to the fact that the boxer breed carries genes for many different potentially fatal heart diseases.

These genes have not at this time been isolated. Therefore they will carry over into any hybrid breed e.g a mini boxer due to the fact that eventually people would have to inbreed on the new breed to set it's type. So the size issue will mean nothing as eventually the "new" mini boxer will still be carrying these lethal genes

Originally posted by Lorianne
To improve the life span would be wonderful.

Yes it would but trying to do so with uncontrolled, misguided methods will be detrimental. The three biggest killers of boxers are cancer, heart disease and euthanasia due to being unwanted.

"Inventing" a new miniature boxer will not address any of these issues. We can't even get correct sized boxers healthy at this point in time and will not be doing the breed any good to embark on "fad" breeding which is exactly what this is and will be. WHen something new comes along you get the old "everybody wants one attitude" You see it with kids and their toys or gimmicks - the "new" thing then sits in the box or a cupboard unused in over half the cases. This too happens with "fad" breeding. When the novelty wears off so does the usefullness of the dog, but instead of a cupboard they end up in a shelter on death row.

To do something because it can be done, in regards to dog breeding, lacks foresight, is irresponsible in the extreme and reeks of all things bad in dog breeding.

Originally posted by Lorianne
Don't get me wrong I do understand what you are saying. Using other breeds to make a mini should go thru the rules and reg. But if you use a smaller boxer to a smaller boxer and not incorporating another breed, how is this going to hurt, because I understand these smaller boxers live longer. If they are incorporating another breed with a boxer and advertising it as mini, I agree this is not right.

Because despite what you see or what you think you see you can't get a miniature boxer by simply breeding the small ones to each other - it is governed by genetics as I said above. They can only get so small and they can't get to a size that would meet the classification of being miniature without the injection of bllod from a smaller breed.

Also by only using the smaller boxers to try and create this miniature you are not in any way influencing the effect of those genes that are causing the problems in the breed anyway. They will still have the genetic makeup to produce Cardiomyopathy, Aortic Stenosis, Pulmonic Stenosis and any of the MANY other genetic diseases boxers have.

Originally posted by Lorianne
Plus I have never seen a boxer that is a reverse brindle. I have seen a reverse brindle on a Great Dane. If you want I can send you a picture of him and you tell me what you think?

If you have never seen a "reverse brindle" boxer you a) don't know what one looks like or b) have seen very few boxers at all.
They are as common as chips.

As for Great Danes - they come in Fawn, Brindle, Harlequin, Black or Blue - there are no reverse brindle danes unless they are crossed with something else

I truly wish people would look into what they are doing thoroughly before they undertake such hair brained and detrimental schemes.

Let's fix the boxers we have first before introducing more problems to an already over populated dog world!!

MC

 

[None-removed]

Originally posted by Lorianne
Everyone is concerned with standards of a boxer. To me it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to me is if they look and act like a boxer.

This one statement terrifies me.

Far too many "breeders" don't have a concern with breed standard, which is the primary cause for many of the maladies that plague boxers. Unfortunately, if they are not bred to the standard, they will, soon, begin to look and act nothing like a boxer we know today. Breeding should be left in the hands of the qualified who have the time, the brains and the money to breed a better boxer and constantly strive to achieve the perfect boxer by the FCI/AKC standard - not further compounding the problem and convoluting the issue by hair-brained breeding schemes that can bring only bad.

Just my opinion.

 

[catcompany]

Yes Cubby--I agree with you on that one.
Personally I am not concerned by the standards of a Boxer but then I am not a breeder, I just love that breed. I strongly feel that a responsible breeder should be concerned with the standards. That will definitely lessen their tendency to get sick and suffer untimely death.

 

[Pippa]

I think if this thread highlights anything, it highlights the importantce of responsible breeding: by that, I mean breeding from stock that has had the relevant tests carried out to prove there is no congenital defect in the particular line. My first boxer, Harvey, was put to sleep three years ago at 14 months and 2 days because he had congenital heart failure.... I'm still getting over that. Mishka has a heart murmur and our vet tells us that 95% of the boxers she looks at have heart defects of some description. there are boxers around who have good hearts and conform to type and it's these dogs we should be breeding from. Of course, you'll always get tragic incidences of dogs with problems, but they hopefully wouldn't be a characteristic of the breed.

Incidentally, I read somewhere that there is a guy in the UK who is trying to breed some of the hereditary problems out of bulldogs, by using outcrosses with boxers, to make the breed more like it was 100 years ago, taller and more athletic. He is doing this because he loves the breed and does not want to see more and more British Bulldogs being bred that can't breath properly, can't exercise and can't give birth naturally. but the UK KC won't recognise his pups because they are not 'purebred'. Conversely, the UK KC has recognised some boxer pups as purebred that actually have Pembroke Corgi in their gggrandparents, because somebody decided to try to breed a boxer with a short tail to avoid the docking issue..... how dumb is that!

I have nothing against the idea of breeding minature boxers as such, as long as it's done to a recognised programme, with health tested parents and carefully monitored. What worries me is that people will churn these little dogs out as novelties without any thought for the welfare of the mother or puppies and in 10 years time, the breed will be very short lived and virtually unrecognisable as the gorgeous breed we know today.