Male/male aggression (long)

[mancin]

First off, I have done a search on this issue. I have two male pups. Tyson, a boxer, that is 18 weeks, and Crash, a rottweiler, that is 13 weeks. Neither have been neutered as they are still quite young. We got Tyson first and brought Crash into the picture 2 - 3 weeks ago.
The first night was rough. Tyson was very curious of Crash, but Crash didn't want to be bothered so he kept growling at Tyson. I think it was mostly Crash wasn't comfortable in his "new" home yet. The next morning, however, the two of them were playing as if they were best friends. The next few days were great. Then, they had a nasty fight over a bone. They were fighting to the point that I thought one of them could get hurt, so I took away the bone and separated them. The next day, they started fighting over their food bowls and DH got bit when trying to separate them. I've made every effort to keep them apart when it comes to food and treats, but now they are fighting over other things. For example, I have a gate that I put up so that the puppies cannot get to the cat food and litter box. I had gone over the gate to feed the cats and both Tyson and Crash sat on the other side waiting for me. As soon as I stepped back over, Tyson began viciously snapping, biting, and barking at Crash. If I pet Crash, Tyson comes over and attacks him. Crash is very laid back and never starts the fights... it's always Tyson. Crash rarely growls at Tyson, but does fight back if he's attacked.
When they fight like this, I separate them and without any drama put them into their separate crates for a time out. After they've both calmed down I let them out and they are fine.
I've read both "Culture Clash" and "The Dog Listener" and thought I was doing a good job at portraying myself as the alpha, however I truly think Tyson believes he's the alpha.
I've heard that neutered males have less aggression towards each other, but I don't know how significant that will be in my case.
They have both been trying to show dominance over the other. Tyson will hump Crash and a couple days later Crash will hump Tyson.
Tyson does not show this type of aggression towards me. I can take any toy I want from him without protest and can pet him, put my hand in his bowl, take his bowl away, etc. while he's eating. He's never growled at me, attempted to bite me, or done anything to that nature.
I have never seen Tyson act this way towards any other dog, but then again he's never been around another dog that he's had to share his space with. He was well socialized and both are currently enrolled in puppy classes. He's never come across a dog that he doesn't like. He's never even growled at another dog.
It just breaks my heart when they start fighting like this. I almost feel like maybe Tyson would have been better off if I hadn't gotten Crash, however then there are days they snuggle up and sleep w/ each other and have a great time playing. Getting rid of either one is NOT an option... I just want to take control of this behavior.
The reason I'm posting this is the fights are becoming more frequent... especially within the last week. If it was once in awhile (like it had been) I wouldn't be as worried, but they had at least 5 of these confrontations yesterday. I really don't want either of them to get hurt.
I haven't brought this up w/ our trainer yet because as I just mentioned, it hadn't been a huge problem until recently, but will ask her when we have our next training class (next Thursday). I just wanted some advice from you guys.
Help! :(

 

[robynkendall]

I know how you are feeling. My male boxer, Sam, does the same thing with our other (and much older) dog Joe. He seems to resent it when I pet Joe because he will come over and position himself between us so that I can't pet him anymore. He starts some vicious fights too, even though Joey dosen't want to fight, he is just an old dog who wants to be left alone. And God forbid Joe is eating something that Sam wants-another fight will ensue. Other times they play together very nicely! Hope you get some good advice on how to handle your pups, I know it can be heartbreaking.

 

[Alidog]

There were a few things clearly wrong that I picked up in your post. Both males are around the same age and both are not neutered. You will undoubtedly find it easier if you do this for both of them. If you have females dogs around your property or on your property you will one day find their fighting could turn extremely vicious or even fatal.
You mentioned that one of the boys allowed you to touch is bowl or remove his bowl even when he was eating? This is one area of a dogs territory that should NEVER be treated as such. Just like an animals sleeping quarters, toy area, a dogs feeding bowl is theirs and should never be disturbed. If he leaves his bowl when there is still food there and you wish to take it away, do, however while a dog is at his bowl pulling it away or even touching it is a big no-no. Please dont think im lecturing, dogs do need their space and these are things they recognise as their own.
Do not feed either boy near each other, do not even allow them to see each other while they are eating. When you approach them when they are together, do not pay attention to one dog at a time, if you have to, ignore them both. Stand above them and do not let either of them jump at you .
All I can tell from your post and having had many males on one property before is that they are fighing for your attention and for the next rank below you in your hierachy. This is almost inevitable when coming across two dogs of the same sex but if you can ensure that you do not alienate one dog in anyway their competition will remain with each other and for each other

 

[mancin]

Alidog,

Thanks for your response, but I have to disagree with one of your points. I've read over and over that you MUST have contact w/ their food, toys, etc. so they do not learn to guard them. The reason for me doing those things w/ his food, toys, etc. is to teach him that another presence is NOT a threat. If they have full "power" over their food, toys, sleeping quarters, then wouldn't that make them the alpha and not me?
I do try and give both of them attention when they are around me. I ignore them when I come home or enter the room from another room if they come to me. They only get my attention if I ask them for it.
I am planning on neutering both of them, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea to do it while they are so young, especially since I don't know how much of an impact it's going to have on their behavior. I know humane societies and rescue organizations typically neuter their males before adopting them out, and I'm aware that they do this at any age. I will speak w/ my vet and see what the best time will be for neutering them.

 

[mx394]

ali, every person(dog owner/trainer) i have talked says to touch them pet the and even remove food and toys when they're eat/playing so they don't become aggressive. i was just wondering where you got your info from.

 

[kassa]

I think it's a reasonable philosophy in theory (their food is their own) but in practice, I must be able to take food (or what the dog considers food) from my dog's very MOUTH (and what's more personal than that?) so the way to begin is that I can take from his bowl. Food taken from the bowl is always replaced with a little extra something, so he comes to think of it as a positive experience. It's not something I do a lot of, because so far I haven't had a dog that got grumpy and objected particularly. Certainly if one did he'd be eating from my hand until he learned to knock it off.

What's mine is mine. What's his is also mine. I respect a dog's bed and food bowl once I know that if challenged he will back off and grant me access.

 

[Alidog]

Woops!

I wasnt saying that you dont respect your dog by touching his food bowl etc! I had a book given to me of the breeder of my wee girl and it suggested that because the boxer is such a hyper breed that areas such as the food bowl and sleeping area should be left alone when they are there or using it. The suggested reason behind this is that by nature animals are territorial of these things, particularly males and no matter how much you think you know your animal, we will never be able to predict their natural reaction if these areas are inteferred with. Of course it can be a way to get your dog used to children, having things removed from its mouth etc..however, what I believe I got from reading this book is that these are moments my dog should not be disturbed. One passage reads "A dog will naturally be possessive and almost aggressive when a dog in competition makes an effort towards their possession/food/toy etc. A dog whose human in the alpha position takes the place of the 'competitive dog', will recognise their actions in the same way or even in some cases as small punishment for normal behaviour. These are the dogs domain and their instinct has made them protective in nature".

I was not suggesting that you do not respect your food. I do not remove Ali's food bowl from her until she has ignored it or finished what is in there and when she is sleeping on her bed she is not interrupted or told to go there when she has been scolded. Since I read the book and have been following the advice about food, toys, sleeping areas etc, I have found that she is a lot less anxious and 'skittery'. She used to be very protective of her 'belongings' and had little respect for me as the 2nd alpha in the family. She does allow my partner to remove any toys from her mouth in play however she has become more relaxed and less protective.

I hope that clarifys my opinion a little bit more. Obviously we are all going to offer different advice in respect to our experiences with boxers. Having bred comparatively quiet German Shepherds in the past, I have gone to all lengths to ensure my wee girl is as controllable and less aggressive than other boxers I have encountered.

 

[Melgoglia]

Just my 2 cents..

I've always made it a point to make sure my dogs did not mind me or anyone else reaching in their bowl while they were eating. My reasoning when my kids were small you never knew when they might decide to take a piece of food from the bowl to sample not that they were suppose to but I didn't want my furkids to get upset. Since this time my kids have grown up but on occasion we will babysit so we still have smaller kids in the house. I would die if one got bite because they tried to feed a piece of food to Abigail.

I want Abigail to know all humans are the alpha regardless of size..

 

[Alidog]

I totally agree with you and your idea of showing dogs humans are alpha no matter what their size is extremely important! Does a dog view someone as alpha when they lick them to death?! Whenever we have little children around home, Ali cant help but lick their faces and hands..they love it but it is a bit embarassing!!

 

[mancin]

Ok after doing some more researching, I think I might have found my answer. The two pups are definitely fighting for a hierarchical position. I read an article today (http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/health/behaviour_aggression.htm) that made perfect sense to me. I'm going to have to decide which dog is "directly below" me, and treat it as such. I believe Tyson is the most dominant of the two. He is older, we have had him longer, and he has all of the signs listed in the article above. I think we've spent too much time giving them the same amount of attention and they are getting confused about which one is the top dog (not alpha though, as that is me). One time we'll greet Crash first, or we'll greet Tyson first, or we'll greet them both at the same time. I think the problem may be consistency. DH tends to baby Crash as that's "his" dog. As the article mentions, Tyson is to get everything first - fed first, petted first, greeted first, etc. That should help (I hope) settle the ongoing battle between the two dogs. I believe something like this was also mentioned in The Culture Clash, but I'd have to re-read it to find the passage I'm thinking of.
Any input?