IMPORTANT - poll for ALL members

[whiteone]

i think it was the breeders at Munich bred a white bulldog to a white boxer (alt'sschecken ) that started the breed which gave us Ch. blanka von andertor(white) who was breed to piccolo von angertor (white) which came the Great MATRIARCH OF BOXERS
META VON DER PASSAGE(WHITE) AND i DID READ THAT MOST BOXERS TODAY CAN STILL BE TRACED BACK TO META..

 

[JulieM]

I reply for the edification of others, to correct mistaken information that has been given. I may regret replying because it sometimes seems in these type of discussions that I'm just beating my head against a wall.

i think it was the breeders at Munich bred a white bulldog to a white boxer (alt'sschecken ) that started the breed which gave us Ch. blanka von andertor(white) who was breed to piccolo von angertor (white) which came the Great MATRIARCH OF BOXERS META VON DER PASSAGE(WHITE) ....

Yes, some of the earliest Boxers were white. You have stated that *the* first Boxer was white and I am trying to figure out where you got that information. The page you quoted gives a picture of Schecken, who is clearly a parti-colored (or check) and is, as I mentioned earlier, the dam of Flocki, the first Boxer registered in the stud book. However, Schecken's dam was a brindle Boxer, and it is she who is credited with beginning the breed in Germany. From the ABC website:

The modern Boxer began in the late-nineteenth century in Germany with Alt's Flora, a brindle bitch imported from France by George Alt of Munich. Flora was bred to a local Boxer whose name was never recorded. A fawn and white male from this litter, Lechner's Box, was then bred back to his mother who produced Alt's Flora II and Alt's Schecken. Schecken, when paired in 1895 with a white bulldog called "Dr Toneissen's Tom" in the records, became the dam of the first Boxer registered in the first stud book in 1904, Mühlbauer's Flocki.

Meta, by the way, was also considered a parti-colored brindle.

Here is the address for the ABC Breed History page:

http://clubs.akc.org/abc//full-hist.htm


In the interest of continued edification, the site that you mention is not the best source of information. I know of no breed club by-laws that require the euthanization of whites or that ever have, but I will admit that I have not read the by-laws of every breed club. However, the site also makes this statement:

The American Boxer Club does not activly discourage this behavior but it does allow white Boxers to be registered with the AKC on limited privilege.

The ABC does not, and has not for over 60 years, allowed white Boxers to be registered with the AKC, on "limited privilege" (there's no such thing) or otherwise. I would advise one to take the information on that site with a large grain of salt.

 

[Greg]

Great Stuff

Wow In the last 5 or 6 posts, I've learned things that I wasn't aware of. This great stuff, your discussions and debate's are learning tools about our boxers. Just keep up the good work and remember boxer education is valuable asset.

 

[JulieM]

Thank you, Greg, that is exactly, precisely, what I needed to hear

 

[whiteone]

has u can see on many sites they have pics the pics of (example) munich boxer club was in 1896. all the dogs I mention have more then 25% of there body white. I find it very funny that this dogs from history are consider now something other than white....
which most people would consider this to be white not of the "boxer Stanard" my white male is reg brindle w/white marking and he is white...
anyone can see what I mean if they visit the sites and look at the pics. In noway shape or form was meta anything but white get real .
never the less I glad to see that you did do some reading, wheather u like what u read is my guestion, I mean it;s very clear they were all white...
also yes the first reg boxer was in the 1900's but I am taking about the 1800's many sites even give you pics of dog shows from the 1800's.
by the way I have 2 white boxers, both reg w/akc not limited.
oh yea been to the abc site and it doesn't even show a pic of meta, and u can not even be a member unless u show boxers so that really limits people with whites who do enjoy the breed.
it's really about shows ( atleast what I saw) it does have some information on history but it is the same as the akc site.
And what I think u are refering to when u speak of the first being fawn/brindle I think u may be refering to the bullenbeisser.
but if you need a hotle at your next show they do have Great room rates...

thanks again for your time and help we are expanding our minds this is great!!!!

 

[JulieM]

More than 25% of the body being white does not make a white Boxer. Some of our flashy Boxers are more than 25% white, as long as they are less that 33% white they are allowed to be shown. Dogs that are 1/3 - 2/3 white are called "parti-colored" or "checked." There was a discussion on this in the past. Dogs that are over 2/3 white are called white.

As far as the dogs from history "now" being called something other than white - the information on Meta being a parti-color is from John Wagner's book which I believe was written in 1950 - hardly a new development.

I guess people can interpret pictures differently - I would never consider a dog with large patches of color on it all white, but apparently you would. Vive le difference, eh?

I cannot control how or as what you registered your white Boxers but it tells me a great deal about the breeder you bought them from.

The ABC site does have a picture of Meta, here:
http://clubs.akc.org/abc//meta.htm

If you had read the history page I posted you would have seen the link to it.

Most of the pictures on the site you've mentioned are taken from the ABC site, actually, including the one of the first Munich Boxer show. And yes, many of those dogs were white, again I am not disagreeing with that. It is your steadfast assertion that the first Boxer was pure white, in the face of all documentation to the contrary, that I have an issue with (and, frankly, it is no longer worth my time to discuss that issue - enough information has been posted that people can see the historical documentation and photographs and make up their own minds, which was the whole point.)

The ABC is the National Breed Club, it is of course devoted to those with an interest in maintaining the breed. There are requirements to have exhibited in AKC sanctioned shows - since the ABC is an AKC member club, this is not surprising - but conformation is not specified. You could compete in AKC obedience or agility as well. I admit the focus of the ABC is on comformation, but as more and more performance people are coming in that is changing. Membership requirements of local ABC member clubs are not usually as restrictive, so pet Boxer owners can often join a local club. (However, even the local clubs do require you to abide by the ABC Code of Ethics so you would not be eligible.)

And what I think u are refering to when u speak of the first being fawn/brindle I think u may be refering to the bullenbeisser.

No. First of all, *I* was not speaking of the first Boxers being fawn/brindle, I was giving you a quotation from the breed history, I thought that was clear by the indentation and the separation lines. And no, the history is not referring to the Bullenbeisser, it is referring to the first Boxers in Germany as it specifically states.

This is what I mean about banging my head against a wall.

 

[whiteone]

good moring

well good morning... glad to see I wasn't the only person up this early...
ok lets say that meca would not meet the Boxer standard today... Fair???? her body is white and she had few markings....
never the less the boxer was introduced to america in 1904 and the 1st meeting of the abc was not untill 1935 and seventeen members began to make the standard. ( this came from the abc history). It really is not going to matter I get the impression that you are totally non responsive to the history from your favorite place ABC. The boxer breed standard states that two-thirds of the body be either fawn or brindle so with that most of the first boxers would have not met the standards..ie. white.
maybe it is early but every place I look they are white. I think they all meet the 2/3 rule.
And last but not least once again I will say this site is here to educate, so please do not bang your head anymore, this will affect the education process.
Have a Great day!!!
Thanks for being so helpful..

 

[whiteone]

oh yea, it isn't nice to put down other breeders... It really shows your lack of respect of others, ones you know nothing of. I would never do that but I guess you had no choice.

 

[whiteone]

And the book (john wagner) was first published in 1939..
history from the ABC site.....

 

[Eddie's mom]

......I have been following, and learning......keep it up please!.....

I just wanted to slip in here......I noticed some talk about "registering". I don't know much about this stuff and I may have misunderstood so forgive me if I have. I was just wondering, is it NOT ok to register whites? Is that in the "Code of Ethics"? Just curious if there is a difference in this opinion between USA and Canada. I have done some research and it is acceptable to have "papers" for your white boxer. They are registered right along with their brothers and sisters. They are sold with a "spay/nueter contract" though with responsible breeders.

O.k, thats it.........Thank you guys for all the information and the links!