dog listener

[meggie38]

Hi! I posted a similiar message in "Behavioral Issues" but I probably should have posted here to begin with ( I am new, sorry!) My two boys (2 yrs old)are doing some attention-seeking behavior (eating their beds, their towel in their crate, our box spring, etc). My one always steps in between me and my 11mo. old daughter and stands there and then paws at us CONSTANTLY. I assumed he was jealous, but could it be aggression? Also, my one boy growls and barks when anyone knocks on the door and comes over. He grows, barks and runs away. I assumed he is more scared then being aggressive. I have been reading alot on this site, and have seen the Dog Listener and Culture Clash alot. Do you think one of these books would be helpful with our issues? Thank you!

Meghan, Brutus and Caesar

 

[Krikkit]

Hi Meghan, both books are worth reading

Sharon

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

Absolutely. Get both books.

 

[Gruntsmom]

I highly recommend The Dog Listener. I am on my second more careful read, and it is helping incredibly. If you do a search in Behavioral Issues, you will find more opinions on The Dog Listener. We got the book 3 weeks ago; my husband read it first while I read The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell, and he was raving about it after the first chapter. When it was my turn, I could not put it down. In a nutshell, it got to the very basics of communication with our 14 month old male boxer, Grunt. He thought HE was the Alpha male!! We are working through our status as the Alpha pair, and it is incredible how he has responded to this. Also, letting him know what acceptable and unacceptable behavior is......it will probably be an ongoing project for a long time, but when you see results from the techniques in the book, it makes you just want to keep on. Patience and calmness, that is my mantra!!

We had problems with Grunt eating his BEDS, too. After spending $50 on two really nice beds, we gave up on that. He doesn't chew the towels in his crate, anymore....just stopped doing it, for some reason. I think he was doing it out of boredom. We keep him up much later now, so that he is really tired when he goes to bed. And during the day when we have to put him in his crate, no towels, just a Kong filled with goodies.

I haven't read The Culture Clash yet, but will be ordering from Amazon, when I have a few more books to order. Good luck with both books. They are highly recommended by a lot of BW people.

 

[entelekia]

I have both books, The Culture Clash and The Dog Listener; and I have a question:
Has anyone noticed how CC and DL contradict each other in some aspects? I will quote an example:

*From the Culture Clash:
"Notions like dogs rushing through doors ahead of their owners or pulling on leash to exert dominance over their owners are too stupid for words" ... "The whole dominance thing is, once again, a case of leaping to a conclusion before ruling out more obvious explanations" ... "Rank is not on their mind"

*From the Dog Listener:
It is absolutely vital that the owner goes through the door first. This signifies that he or she is the leader and that he or she is performing the job of making sure the coast is clear. Again, this is an immensely powerful signal. If the dog somehow forces itself out first, then it is back to the beginning." ... "As the walk begins, for instance, the dog must never be allowed to walk ahead. Once more, that position is reserved for the leader"

And it goes on.
Don't get me wrong, I think they are both GREAT books, however, their logic and explanations of dog behaviors are total opposites. CC focuses on dogs doing things because they're dogs, and they don't know any better, while DL focuses on dogs doing things because they're dogs and they are following pack behavior, i.e. alpha status, etc. Some things are consistant, like the use of positive reinforcement to teach behaviors, and the importance of patience and calmness when dealing with dogs. But I just find it funny how one of the books puts down the theory of the other book, and vice versa.

Anybody have any thoughts about that?

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

I have both books, The Culture Clash and The Dog Listener; and I have a question:
Has anyone noticed how CC and DL contradict each other in some aspects? I will quote an example:

*From the Culture Clash:
"Notions like dogs rushing through doors ahead of their owners or pulling on leash to exert dominance over their owners are too stupid for words" ... "The whole dominance thing is, once again, a case of leaping to a conclusion before ruling out more obvious explanations" ... "Rank is not on their mind"

*From the Dog Listener:
It is absolutely vital that the owner goes through the door first. This signifies that he or she is the leader and that he or she is performing the job of making sure the coast is clear. Again, this is an immensely powerful signal. If the dog somehow forces itself out first, then it is back to the beginning." ... "As the walk begins, for instance, the dog must never be allowed to walk ahead. Once more, that position is reserved for the leader"

And it goes on.
Don't get me wrong, I think they are both GREAT books, however, their logic and explanations of dog behaviors are total opposites. CC focuses on dogs doing things because they're dogs, and they don't know any better, while DL focuses on dogs doing things because they're dogs and they are following pack behavior, i.e. alpha status, etc. Some things are consistant, like the use of positive reinforcement to teach behaviors, and the importance of patience and calmness when dealing with dogs. But I just find it funny how one of the books puts down the theory of the other book, and vice versa.

Anybody have any thoughts about that?

They key word in "dominance." Ms. Donaldson states that this first thru the door indicating "dominance" is nonsense. Ms. Fennell states that going thru the door first signifies LEADERSHIP (not dominance) to the dog. There is a world of difference between dominance and leadership. Therefore, it makes sense to me and they are not contradictory in the least.

Hope that helps.

 

[entelekia]

*From the Culture Clash:
"Pack theory is simply not the most useful model for explaining or, especially for treating problems like disobedience, misbehavior or aggression."

*From the Dog Listener:
"We may consider them to be pets but our dogs still believe they are functioning members of a community that operates according to principles directly descended from the wolf pack." ... "What is more, all of the problems we encounter with our dogs are rooted in their belief that they rather than us, their owners, are the leaders of their particular packs."

---------------------------

Another example in which I think the books contradict each other:

*From the Culture Clash (on tug-of-war):
"It's good because it's intense, increases dog focus and confidence and plugs into something very deep inside dogs" ... "I would even go so far as to say that this cooperative "killing" is a bonding experience for pack members"

*From the Dog Listener:
"As for playtime itself, one of the golden rules I emphasize is that an owner should never get into a tugging contest with a dog. There are two very good reasons for this. Firstly, it allows the dog to dictate the rules of the games. Secondly, and potentially even more dangerous, there is a danger the dog might sense its physical superiority over an owner"

---------------------------------
Again, these are only my opinions, and I do think it's great to read both books, because if a person doesn't necessarily feel comfortable with one theory, they might feel comfortable with the other. What is important, is that both books underline the same training techniques/methods (positive reinforcement, food rewards, ignoring undesirable behaviors, patience and calmness). I think that is the most important message of both books. They just happen to have different reasonings behind it.

JMHO

 

[Krikkit]

Again, these are only my opinions, and I do think it's great to read both books, because if a person doesn't necessarily feel comfortable with one theory, they might feel comfortable with the other. What is important, is that both books underline the same training techniques/methods (positive reinforcement, food rewards, ignoring undesirable behaviors, patience and calmness). I think that is the most important message of both books. They just happen to have different reasonings behind it.

That is why I recommend both Different things will appeal to different people, yet the methods in both are reasonably sound. To be honest, I really don't like the Dog Listener at all - every time I read about "dominance" and "alpha" and "pack" etc, I want to throw it away or stomp on it or shread it. Also really think some of the ideas played with in the Dog Listener book are way over the top and borderline laughable :rolleyes: That is my personal opinion - I got very little from this book but understand that it may be useful to others. I am far more comfortable with the 'Culture Clash' line of thinking and do feel that it is far more 'accurate' with regards to dog behaviour.

In saying that, I don't have any leadership issues at all with my dogs, move in circles where discussing the true nitty gritty of dog behaviour (less the alpha, dominance stuff) is common place, and am involved in performance where one of the first things most of us want to teach our dogs is how to tug

Sharon

 

[Jan]

I have to agree with Sharon here. I much prefer the Culture Clash. I have also read the Dog Listener and I didn't like it much for the same reasons. :(

 

[JulieM]

They key word in "dominance." Ms. Donaldson states that this first thru the door indicating "dominance" is nonsense. Ms. Fennell states that going thru the door first signifies LEADERSHIP (not dominance) to the dog.

I'm not sure there really is a difference here. I know that when you and I talk, Dan, dominance and leadership mean entirely different things - but I think the authors are speaking of generally the same thing. Take the feeding thing - Ms. Fennell says you should eat a cracker "out of the dog's bowl," to indicate that you, as the leader, eat first. This is a dominance-theory notion, based on the supposition that alpha wolves eat first (they often don't, in fact puppies eat first - but no one eats until the alpha wolves say they can!).

Here's a blurb that hopefully clarifies the point more, this is from Melissa Alexander based on conversations with Dr. Ian Dunbar:

To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.

Obviously, I feel the same as Sharon and Jan. I generally don't comment on this book, because I know that it's worked very well for many, many people, and on the whole I think it's largely benign. Ms. Fennell is certainly light-years ahead of those lukomorphic trainers who advocate scruff shakes and alpha rolls, but still a little stuck in the past IMO.

I do think it's great to read both books, because if a person doesn't necessarily feel comfortable with one theory, they might feel comfortable with the other.

I think this is the key point. There are many different theories about domestic canine behavior, some based on ancient thought, some based on new research, and a wide range of those based somewhere in the middle. The most effective trainer is one who has learned about all of the different theories, and picks and chooses among them to find what works best for that trainer, with that dog, in that situation. This does and should vary considerably with different dogs, or with the same dog in different situations.

If you're really conflicted, dig deeper. Read some of the research on canine behavior and social hierarchies (quickly, some artilces by Dr. Dunbar based on the Berkeley studies are here: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/#dominance , and there's a brief interview with the Coppingers about their book, Dogs: A Startling New Understanding... here: http://www.workingdogweb.com/Coppinger.htm)