Demodex Mite found really worried

[cantfindlog]

I would strongly suggest that you ask your vet what it is that is actually being put on your dog.

I agree, would you please find out what your vet is "dipping" or not "dipping" your dog in. These posts are supposed to be informative and if we don't know what your are really referring to it becomes confusing. If it is not something dangerous such as the mitaban and perhaps something safe then it would be nice for all of us BW members to know. I know I often go to my vet after I have read something here and ask about it. Most times the vet knows about this product or that product but several times I have given them information from this website that they had not either heard of or not considered yet. So please clarify your "dips" for us all that are following your post. Thank you.

 

[jboboxer]

I will ask my vet what she is being dipped with, but I just thought the term dip was universal and that there was only one product. I see people mention mitaban, well what else could it be?

I can tell you that they gave her a bath, then put the chemical on her and had to air dry her, then I picked her up and they told me not to give her a bath for days. After the dip, Roxy just layed down and was very very lethargic. If I put her favorite treat next to her face she would just look away, she slept almost 24/7 for the first two days and would barely eat.

Now was this the cause of the dip or possible her condition was so bad.

I'm scheduled to go back on Wednesday, so I'll ask my vet at that time the name of the dip to help if there's a confusion.

I've discussed this with my wife a lot and she's pretty sure she doesn't want to give Roxy another dip, since she is doing better. I don't want to reverse it, but right now I'm seeing progress that's amazing.

Before her hair was all falling out, she had scabs all over, red, she was itching and at times she was crying as if she was in pain.

Now her little half tail wags all the time, she's so happy and she has no scabs, her hair already seems to be growing back and she itches a lot less. The only places I can see bumps are in her face where the hair is growing back, the top of her back and around the armpit areas. The sides are smooth without any bumps, which is an improvement.

I've been putting a lot of nu-stock on her, trying to avoid getting it in her eyes and I think it's working great.
But when I've been doing so much, it's hard to tell what was helping the most. Was it possibly the dips? Maybe the fish oil, maybe the increase in vitamin c helped her body fight off some of the mites, maybe the shot he gave her. The nu-stock i'm pretty sure is only helping the areas I'm putting it in.

I do believe the low carb diet is helping a lot from spending hours and hours researching online as well as the time my wife spent researching. Just surprised it's not mentioned that much or maybe it's new studies and new findings.

The family had to go out of town for 3-4 days, so I left my puppy with my mother and she feed my puppy a lot of rice and chicken mixed with some of her dry food. I'm not sure if it was the stress of a new place or all the carbs from the rice, but she looked so horrible when we got her back that I was really scared. She seemed to be happy while over there playing with my mom's dog, but I'm sure there's some stress with a new place. It just makes me wonder if the extra rice contributed as a lot of research seems to indicate online.

As of right now I've mentioned it before i'm doing wellness puppy mix for breakfast and pure chicken for dinner. So again I'm not sure if this also adds in what I'm seeing as a very fast recovery.

 

[jboboxer]

oh by the way I stopped using the ointment that I indicated on the first post as I could only put it in certain areas that Roxy couldn't lick and she hated it and would try to lick it, it was just annoying and didn't seem to work well even when I did put it in some areas. Nu-stock seemed to really be doing the trick as I could cover a lot more area, it's non-toxic for the puppy and they added bitter stuff to it, so even then the dog won't want to lick it.

The shampoo I stopped using also and have just been using aveeno to wash her about every 3 days, because nu-stock says you should reapply it every 3 days and you should wash your dog first. Well reading on other messageboards about nu-stock it seems that people reapply it very often and don't wash their dog inbetween. I've been putting it on every day with baby oil to make it thinner as recommended on the bottle, but then I'm trying to give her a bath every 3-4 days.

The aveeno baths seem to help her a lot as the dead skin/scabs come off and the crusty nu-stock is washed off and after drying I reapply it.

 

[gmacleod]

I will ask my vet what she is being dipped with, but I just thought the term dip was universal and that there was only one product. I see people mention mitaban, well what else could it be?

That is exactly the question. At the beginning of the thread you talk about a sulphur oxydex shampoo, and then various other topical treatments she seems to be getting. And Ivermectin on top of that. It is a very strange arrangement - Ivermectin is a substitute for dips, not something one sees used in conjuction. In any case, it isn't clear from your postings whether she is getting mitaban (which, incidentally, was removed from the market some years ago - not every vet kept a stock or is prepared to use it anyway) or whether one of these other treatments/baths is being called a dip.

From your latest post though, and description of her lethargy following the dips, it seems very likely that it is indeed mitaban that is being used.

I do believe the low carb diet is helping a lot from spending hours and hours researching online as well as the time my wife spent researching. Just surprised it's not mentioned that much or maybe it's new studies and new findings.

It has been mentioned several times in this thread already, and in just about every other thread on mange on this site That is what is meant by the concept of supporting the immune system by feeding a high quality diet (translation: Dumping junk kibble, and feeding decent quality real food instead. First choice is a natural raw diet, homecooking (sans grains and other carbs) is next best, and the best quality dry food you can get with supplemts is the third best option).

 

[jboboxer]

That is exactly the question. At the beginning of the thread you talk about a sulphur oxydex shampoo, and then various other topical treatments she seems to be getting. And Ivermectin on top of that. It is a very strange arrangement - Ivermectin is a substitute for dips, not something one sees used in conjuction. In any case, it isn't clear from your postings whether she is getting mitaban (which, incidentally, was removed from the market some years ago - not every vet kept a stock or is prepared to use it anyway) or whether one of these other treatments/baths is being called a dip.

From your latest post though, and description of her lethargy following the dips, it seems very likely that it is indeed mitaban that is being used.



It has been mentioned several times in this thread already, and in just about every other thread on mange on this site That is what is meant by the concept of supporting the immune system by feeding a high quality diet (translation: Dumping junk kibble, and feeding decent quality real food instead. First choice is a natural raw diet, homecooking (sans grains and other carbs) is next best, and the best quality dry food you can get with supplemts is the third best option).

Well I feel there's a difference between a good diet and a low carb diet. As I've been reading around the wellness dry food is excellet food to feed your dog, but not exactly the perfect solution if you are trying to eliminate a lot of carbs. Instead of feeding her wellness twice a day, I'm feeding her once a day and then pure chicken at night.

To be completely honest, I've learned more from this board than I have anywhere else and of course much better than from my vet. Anyway I just called my vet and the lady working the front I told her i was scheduled to take my dog in for a dip and asked her the name of the dip and she said it was Mitiban, which is a type of amitraz. I know it started with the letter A. As others have told me it seems like they do one or the other. Well I think since there's been such a great recovery so far that I should just look at taking the shots and not the dip.

Anyway right now all her bumps, scabs have gone away around her body were we've been putting the nu-stock. Anywhere nu-stock goes it seems scabs heal, bumps go away and hair grows back really fast.
The only place that her hair is growing back slowly or the only place I can see any signs of hair loss, slight bumps is on her head. The hair is growing back, scabs are gone and just slightly signs of bumps. I'm really amazed on the difference it's been in about 10 days. 10 days ago she couldn't open her eyes from the bumps, she was crying, green stuff was coming out of her eyes and now it's as if she doesn't have it the way she acts and the only signs I can see are on her head.

I would like another opinion though instead of just my vets. She has had two shots of Ivermectin and I'm going to take her into the vet tomorrow, which is 10 days from her last shot, so that will be shot number 3. The vet said it would take 10 shots (10 weeks) all together, I'm not sure if that's his pocket talking or if it's really going to require that many shots.

My last question is that I've been reading that once a dog has this issue that you can never go back to feedering her like you used to and you need to always have a different diet. So even though wellness is great food, I'm thinking about mixing both meals with chicken for the life of my puppy and just wanted to get some feedback or could I go back eventually to 100% wellness?

 

[kayboxer]

To be completely honest, I've learned more from this board than I have anywhere else and of course much better than from my vet. Anyway I just called my vet and the lady working the front I told her i was scheduled to take my dog in for a dip and asked her the name of the dip and she said it was Mitiban, which is a type of amitraz. I know it started with the letter A. As others have told me it seems like they do one or the other. Well I think since there's been such a great recovery so far that I should just look at taking the shots and not the dip.

Anyway right now all her bumps, scabs have gone away around her body were we've been putting the nu-stock. Anywhere nu-stock goes it seems scabs heal, bumps go away and hair grows back really fast.
The only place that her hair is growing back slowly or the only place I can see any signs of hair loss, slight bumps is on her head. The hair is growing back, scabs are gone and just slightly signs of bumps. I'm really amazed on the difference it's been in about 10 days. 10 days ago she couldn't open her eyes from the bumps, she was crying, green stuff was coming out of her eyes and now it's as if she doesn't have it the way she acts and the only signs I can see are on her head.

I would like another opinion though instead of just my vets. She has had two shots of Ivermectin and I'm going to take her into the vet tomorrow, which is 10 days from her last shot, so that will be shot number 3. The vet said it would take 10 shots (10 weeks) all together, I'm not sure if that's his pocket talking or if it's really going to require that many shots.

My last question is that I've been reading that once a dog has this issue that you can never go back to feedering her like you used to and you need to always have a different diet. So even though wellness is great food, I'm thinking about mixing both meals with chicken for the life of my puppy and just wanted to get some feedback or could I go back eventually to 100% wellness?

It sounds as though she definately doesn't need dips if she is recovering that well (I wouldn't have done them to begin with knowing what I now know). I'm glad to hear she is doing better. As for it taking at least 10 shots, how would he know that? You do not know how fast a dog will recover from mange. It could take months, or weeks. I'd get another opinion, sounds like he is making a mint off your pups condition.
As for feeding, after my Roxy got over her mange (horrible case too), I did just feed a high quality kibble (with some liquid vitamins I added for her coat). First it was Innova (but she was allergic to grains), so I switched to a grain-free food. Later on in her life, I decided to add some home cooking or meat to her meals, not because of her previous mange though, it never came back. I do attribute that to a high quality kibble. I just feel like they are getting more if I add meat, so now with the two boxers I have (Roxy has since passed) I always add either canned or homecooked meat. I feed my 2 yr old Wellness Core and my 6 mo. old Wellness Super 5. I will switch her to core when she is a year. I definately say diet is key to management. But as long as you use a high quality kibble I think you will be fine. You do not HAVE to add meat, but if you don't mind doing it I think it is a great addition to their diet and only a benefit to their health.

 

[gmacleod]

I would like another opinion though instead of just my vets. She has had two shots of Ivermectin and I'm going to take her into the vet tomorrow, which is 10 days from her last shot, so that will be shot number 3. The vet said it would take 10 shots (10 weeks) all together, I'm not sure if that's his pocket talking or if it's really going to require that many shots.

Well, this is the thing I find so amazing - and actually why I've been so insistent about knowing whether or not the dips really were mitaban. Ivermectin is a popular (and, unless the dog is a herding breed, much less damaging) form of treatment for mange. But I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using it in conjunction with mitaban. She may have a severe case of mange, but that seems like overkill (and with risks).

What is hard to know, in your puppy's case, is which treatment is it that is helping? The mitaban or the ivermectin? Considering the risks of mitaban, if I were in your position and going to drop one of them, I'd choose to dump the mitaban and keep going with all 10 shots of ivermectin

My last question is that I've been reading that once a dog has this issue that you can never go back to feedering her like you used to and you need to always have a different diet.

I'm not sure that that is necessarily true... BUT it is worth bearing in mind that the reason that good diet (and low carbs) is so important is because dogs aren't evolved to consume a diet that includes carbs. Most dogs can tolerate carbohydrate-based diets, but "tolerate" is a heck of a long way from "thrive" What you've got to figure about carbs in dog food is that (a) they're in there because they're CHEAP compared to meat and (b) it is impossible to make those convenient dried up little pellets that are kibble without large doses of carbs. Carbs in commercial dog foods have nothing, ZERO, to do with what is a species-appropriate diet for the dog, nor what he has evolved to consume. Sometimes that isn't an obvious problem, sometimes it is.

Nutrition for dogs, as much as for humans, is the underpinner of good health and healthy immune system. So whilst it is quite possible that, once your dog is fully recovered and thriving, you might be able to just feed a kibble diet - you will be feeding an inferior diet. And you can probably expect that to have some sort of impact upon long term health, even if its not an obvious and immediate impact. Thus, for the long term, even if you find your dog appears to tolerate just kibble quite well, you would probably be doing her - and your wallet, considring long term health costs - a favour by continuing to provide superior nutrition through the adding of real meat to her diet.

 

[jboboxer]

Well, this is the thing I find so amazing - and actually why I've been so insistent about knowing whether or not the dips really were mitaban. Ivermectin is a popular (and, unless the dog is a herding breed, much less damaging) form of treatment for mange. But I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using it in conjunction with mitaban. She may have a severe case of mange, but that seems like overkill (and with risks).

What is hard to know, in your puppy's case, is which treatment is it that is helping? The mitaban or the ivermectin? Considering the risks of mitaban, if I were in your position and going to drop one of them, I'd choose to dump the mitaban and keep going with all 10 shots of ivermectin

I'm not sure that that is necessarily true... BUT it is worth bearing in mind that the reason that good diet (and low carbs) is so important is because dogs aren't evolved to consume a diet that includes carbs. Most dogs can tolerate carbohydrate-based diets, but "tolerate" is a heck of a long way from "thrive" What you've got to figure about carbs in dog food is that (a) they're in there because they're CHEAP compared to meat and (b) it is impossible to make those convenient dried up little pellets that are kibble without large doses of carbs. Carbs in commercial dog foods have nothing, ZERO, to do with what is a species-appropriate diet for the dog, nor what he has evolved to consume. Sometimes that isn't an obvious problem, sometimes it is.

Nutrition for dogs, as much as for humans, is the underpinner of good health and healthy immune system. So whilst it is quite possible that, once your dog is fully recovered and thriving, you might be able to just feed a kibble diet - you will be feeding an inferior diet. And you can probably expect that to have some sort of impact upon long term health, even if its not an obvious and immediate impact. Thus, for the long term, even if you find your dog appears to tolerate just kibble quite well, you would probably be doing her - and your wallet, considring long term health costs - a favour by continuing to provide superior nutrition through the adding of real meat to her diet.

I think we're having a little bit of a misunderstanding or what I'm referring to when I say low carb. I'm not really referring to feeding her better for health reasons as I thought wellness by itself was pretty healthy, but what I mean is that I've been reading studies that suggest mites live off of yeast and carobhydrates.

So I think the misconnect is that I think you are talking about a healthy diet versus a diet for a dog that has demodex mites. Trying to eliminate all the carbs might be great for demodex mites, but I'm not 100% sure it's the best thing for a healthy dog to have as low or close to low carbs as possible. It's another thing, I've seen the ratings on the wellness, but there's no indication on the grams of carbohydrates or any information, so it's why I've been only doing wellness in the morning and chicken at night.

It's actually cheaper for me to do pure chicken then it is to do half wellness in the morning and chicken at night. Since she's still a puppy I just didn't want to do 100% chicken as I'm not sure about how healthy it would be. I'm trying to eliminate as many carbs as possible, so I figured one meal in the morning that has a little bit of carbs and another mean that has virtually zero carbs.

How is it that most people prepare their chicken for instance for their boxer? I picked up some slabs of chicken that were frozen from walmart and we boiled it with a little bit of salt and water and then stored it in the frig. This is what we've been giving her, which we only used a really really tiny amount of salt, but wondering if no salt would work out or if I should prepare it another way?

I'm not sure if it's the shots or the dips, but I'm really starting to think it's the diet, vitamins and the nu-stock that I'm putting on her more than anything else. The shot I can tell you a week later she was worse than when I first got her. After the dip she wasn't doing good for days and that's when I started to remove carbs, increase her vitamin C twice the dosage I was giving her before and I introduced fish oil with omega 3.

Roxy seemed to be improving just slightly and you can see it around her eyes, but I saw the biggest improvement on areas I put the nu-stock. Of course around her eyes I didn't put it, so it had to be something else that was improving, but where ever I put the nu-stock ointment is where I saw the most drastic improvements. It was the cheapest best thing I think I bought at 14 dollars at a local store.

Thanks so much for all the help

 

[BxrMommieNAZ]

Just plain chicken would absolutely NOT be healthy for any dog. They need fat, calcium, phosphorus, and other minerals and vitamins, however dogs DO NOT NEED CARBS EVER. Many feed a prey model raw diet (with bones) with some organ meat and that is all and their dogs thrive. So no your dog doesn't need carbs at all whatsoever, however the diet you have her on now will not meet her nutritional needs fully and I wouldn't recommend only giving her half of her allotment in kibble and then making the other half of her allottment chicken only as that isn't healthy. If you're going to do a no carb diet, that's more than fine, but you absolutely need to research it then as things such as bones or bone meal will need to be added among organ meat and other things, especially given that she's a puppy with a medical condition.

Also stop using the salt. The boiled chicken by itself is just fine. She doesn't need additional sodium or spices or anything else.

I completely understand what you are saying, and from reading this thread, those advising you on nutrition understand as well. However, again I will reiterate, IMO the diet you have her on now is going to be lacking calcium, phosphorus and other key important minerals and vitamins if you are only giving half of the kibble she should be eating in the AM and then supplementing the other half with only chicken. Chicken by itself is NOT balanced and therefore she's going to be missing half of the vitamins, minerals, etc that she needs in her daily diet. Again if you want to do a no carb diet, great, but do some serious research possibly consult with a licensed canine nutritionist, visit the raw board or homecooking board here, otherwise your pup is going to be missing a lot of needed nutrition during her formative years.

 

[jboboxer]

Just plain chicken would absolutely NOT be healthy for any dog. They need fat, calcium, phosphorus, and other minerals and vitamins, however dogs DO NOT NEED CARBS EVER. Many feed a prey model raw diet (with bones) with some organ meat and that is all and their dogs thrive. So no your dog doesn't need carbs at all whatsoever, however the diet you have her on now will not meet her nutritional needs fully and I wouldn't recommend only giving her half of her allotment in kibble and then making the other half of her allottment chicken only as that isn't healthy. If you're going to do a no carb diet, that's more than fine, but you absolutely need to research it then as things such as bones or bone meal will need to be added among organ meat and other things, especially given that she's a puppy with a medical condition.

Also stop using the salt. The boiled chicken by itself is just fine. She doesn't need additional sodium or spices or anything else.

I completely understand what you are saying, and from reading this thread, those advising you on nutrition understand as well. However, again I will reiterate, IMO the diet you have her on now is going to be lacking calcium, phosphorus and other key important minerals and vitamins if you are only giving half of the kibble she should be eating in the AM and then supplementing the other half with only chicken. Chicken by itself is NOT balanced and therefore she's going to be missing half of the vitamins, minerals, etc that she needs in her daily diet. Again if you want to do a no carb diet, great, but do some serious research possibly consult with a licensed canine nutritionist, visit the raw board or homecooking board here, otherwise your pup is going to be missing a lot of needed nutrition during her formative years.

Ok I was just told that wellness is excellent, but not for a dog with dedomix mites. I guess giving her straight chicken might not be the best thing for dinner. I guess I could go back to giving her 100% wellness, but I guess it's hard for me to determine how much carbs are in wellness. I was hearing that evo has less carbs?