Dante's Here!! -

[SoleilBxrs]

Such an interesting thread! As mentioned before, between top contenders in boxers around the world.. there aren't large, noticeable differences in style, otherwise why would there be a boxer standard?

I definately agree that people will say anything to sell a dog. Its all hype, to make their pups seem "better, special, different" than others out there... and i've really only seen this done by BYBs.(because they are the ones who need to make that extra effort to make a sale... good breeders aren't usually looking for large a number of puppybuyers, as they have lists, and people looking for them) Here in the States, "Champion-Lines" and "AKC registered" are probably the 2 most overly-used catch phrases BYBs use to try to sell pups. I've seen MANY tout that their dogs are from "working, European Lines" too. Or bragging on a 100+lb sire, and a 90lb bitch, a 40in chest, and a 30in head :eek: (i'd be frightened to see a "boxer" w/ those stats!) These people prey on those newbies that know nothing about the breed, or are overly obsessed w/ trying to have a HUGE "boxer". Sites like the ones mentioned about how great the "EB" is is just all hype.. same thing that the BYBs do to promote sales. People want something different/special/unique... and if you buy into the hype, you do indeed feel as though you have yourself something unique. Anyone could turn around and make a similar site about NABs :rolleyes: (North American Boxer)... You know, they drool and poop less, their attitudes are more easy going, they get along perfectly w/ your family parrot.. but beware, if they see a pigeon on the street, they may be driven to go after it, since they do have higher hunting instincts. If it was my business to sell " "NAB" pups/dogs, you would be sure that i would put a lot of darn effort into making my statements believeable... I'd get pictures, do "studies", get the "expert" oppinion of other NAB breeders who need to do this to sell their dogs. And you know what, if i put enough effort into it, im sure i would get tons of people wanting one of these dogs. There are people here in the states that truly believe that their dogs are from "CH European Lines", when the stud and bitch have no Ch Europen descents, or just European descendents at that.. and the pups look nothing remotely close to CH, or European style... but their BYB breeder sure did a darn good job of playing up the hype. My final point is that anyone can say anything about their dogs.. its up to the potential buyers to be educated enough to distinguish between fact and fiction, quality and poor quality. JMHO

Essie- your pup is adorable, and if you did spend tons of time talking to breeders and researching kennels i commend you on that.. you've found a style of dog that you are happy with. And i do hope that you try to show your dog, keep up its CH. heritage.. as it seems that many of the dogs that do get imported, do not. (not just conformation dogs, but esp. Shuzt. titled dogs)

-Kat

 

[essie]

I've already read the article that you've posted... I disagree with it. It compares the standard rather than the actual appearance. The standard can be interpreted in many different ways which is why I think there are differences in class winners from either parts of the world. I also stated several times that I do not agree with everything posted in euro-boxer.com. Please do not quote them and debate what they've written with me as those weren't my words nor were they my opinion. I only suggested that I agree with a lot of what they've said... Though I do agree the way they've worded some of what they've said is somewhat hypocritical... I did not say that there is a single "European boxer", but did say that there is a general European boxer. I have noticed differences in correctly breed class winning boxers. I also cannot tell you with certainty where a boxer, based on its appearance, originated. I however must say that - generally - boxers from Europe have a more angled stance, fuller looking body, and larger looking paws. I've noticed that many NA Boxer winners have a thinner, yet elegant build, very beautiful coat, and a somewhat longer snout. I must emphasize the word GENERALLY. This is why I use the terms EB Boxer and NA Boxer.

Honestly I'm not much for giving a lengthy response such as yours... So I'm just going to give up on this debate.. Take it how you will.

 

[boxer]

I've already read the article that you've posted... I disagree with it. It compares the standard rather than the actual appearance.

No, it compares how correct boxers are supposed to look - and indeed do look - rather than the faults or appearance of incorrect specimens.
You disagree with that article hmm? Well, that's a little arrogant, don't you think? Opinion of Essie, first time boxer owner of four days duration versus opinion of Judy Horton, boxer breeder of 40 years with numerous champions and BIS awards to her credit, and international boxer judge... Hmmm. No offence, but I think I'll go with the one that knows one end of a boxer from the other, thanks. Incidentally, she's not North American.

Please do not quote them and debate what they've written with me as those weren't my words nor were they my opinion. I only suggested that I agree with a lot of what they've said...

That's a bit like belonging to a political party and promoting its policies and ideals, but saying 'don't call me on any of it, because there's a bit on page 34 of the constitution I don't agree with'. If you don't want people to tell you why the site you're using to back up your opinions is full of propaganda and mis-information, don't keep posting links to it.

I however must say that - generally - boxers from Europe have a more angled stance, fuller looking body, and larger looking paws.

You didn't mention, even though I asked, whether you've ever actually met any European-bred boxers... I would certainly hope that you've met a great many, not just looked at pictures, since you have no hesitation in telling those who've been around them for years that they're wrong.

Well, even though you clearly believe you know better, I think you'd be wise to pay a little more attention to what Judy Horton wrote in her article: "The mistake was made because of insufficient knowledge of the breed, due to my lack of experience at that time. It is the same mistake made by all beginners of "adapting the standard to fit the dog! "

 

[hugomom1]

Essie,

Instead of saying you have a 'European Boxer' just say you have a 'Boxer from Europe'. It would probably cause you a lot less typing.

 

[hugomom1]

I don't really have an opinion on the whole Euro Boxer/Amer. Boxer saga. But I would seriously wonder about a breeder who would send their puppy halfway around the world to a stranger. I'm hoping you had some killer references.

 

[essie]

alright... I have a boxer from europe ... end of that discussion....

Also, I communicated with my breeder for about 5 months via emails and phone calls. We sent videos back and forth and both had time to make a decision.. He actualy knows more about me than my Chihuahuas breeder, which is only 2 hours drive from me. His interviews were a lot more precise than some interviews I've had with breeders in Ontario. I also verified the status of this breeder with several boxer breeders in Canada and the show secritary of next years Boxer Club of Canada National specialty. I still comunicate with him and will visit him next year. In the end I felt a lot more comfortable with him than I did with other breeders that I had met or communicated with.

 

[JMUFly]

So maybe I am going to show my ignorance here, but I am wondering if the "big difference" I see as well as Essie is more about how the dogs are stacked and not in any bigger genetic differences. I say this because earlier today I was looking at a "European Boxer" website (most likely the one previously mentioned) and was impressed with the strength conveyed by the way the dogs stand. Then later today, an unintelligent cat went running in front of Zeke and continued to play on the other side of the street. I let Zeke watch, and the way he was standing nearly perfectly copied the way the "Euro" boxers were standing! It looked like he had shorter back legs than he really does, and he looked more powerful than he does when he stacks on command. He comes from a long line of American champions and grand champions (89% of his ancestors 5 gen. back), but has a slightly shorter nose than average. Comparing the two ways he stands, I can't help but think that he isn't as far from the Hungarian boxers as I thought six hours ago. Am I crazy?
Dave

 

[essie]

You may be right... . I don't want to start the debate all over again, but.... I've been told that in Europe the way the boxer is positioned (not sure of the correct terminology) for show is with the back legs placed farther back. This gives the appearance of a more angled back. I've also been told, and have noticed, that regardless of the way they're positioned, they still have a more angled (shorter looking back) than Boxers in NA...

Your Boxer may have just stood in that position... I could be wrong though, maybe he does have the "European" look .. :P