Cesar Milans' - give the hand bite touch?

[rrboxer]

How do ya'll feel about using your hands to give the touch/hand bite to your puppy when she ignores the "leave it" command and she has something in her mouth she shouldn't? When we go on our walks she sometimes obeys the "leave it" command its so/so when we are outside and she obeys so much better inside at home so much better. I do also when we go on our walks to lure her nose/face away from the item is going to try to pick up but sometimes she will ignore her treat. I was wondering if using your hand like a bite like he says to do would be considered aggressive to her. I have tried to use it on her 2x but I'm really hesitant to apply any will strength to it other than a tap cuz I understand Boxers can be sensitive and I'm afraid that maybe I might get her not to trust us or to turn around and snap so I thought I'd ask the BW community. Of course my tap doesn't even do anything to her. She loves sticks and it drives me crazy that she wants sto pick them up and chew them, sometimes she'll leave them alone and I try to scan the ground ahead of our steps when walking so I can detour but sometimes i don't see everything ahead. What about if she had it in her mouth & she won't drop it ? is it ok to give her treats or is this encouraging her behavior. She is getting better about not putting everything in her mouth she is better about leaving paper on ground, cigarette butts, rocks but her sticks is another matter.

 

[johann]

Please don't. :( It will teach your dog that your hand reaching towards her means something unpleasant and that can have worse consequences that chewing on sticks. Try bringing some much yummier treats with you, so you can distract her before (ideally) or hold it by her nose to distract her once she has the stick.

Work on the leave it command in your home and get it to be much better (maybe someone will chime in with ideas, it took us a long time and some trial and error to teach Johann).

I give the "leave it" command once and then reach into his mouth and whatever it is he has. He's never bitten (even as a puppy when he was still learning bite inhibition) me while I was doing this. But, it didn't take long for him to figure out that if he doesn't drop it, I still take it away....so he drops it right away and gets a treat.

If she's not interested in treats, maybe bring a small squeeky toy in your pocket. When you see a stick, use the toy to get her attention and keep her moving past it. She's probably chewing on the sticks because she wants to play...so engaging her could help keep her attention on you.

 

[RockyCody]

I agree with Johann.

However....

the idea behind the touch/hand bite is to essentially snap your dog out of whatever they are focusing on so intently. Sometimes i do a little touch to the side of rocky's neck - but it isn't painful and it doesn't necessarily implicate "bad" things.

He is not afraid of our hands and I've used it a lot on walks mainly to get him to focus on me and not the dog, squirrel or person he is focusing on. You can also step in front of them to physically block the view of the other animal or whatever she isn't "leaving"

Just my thoughts.

 

[johann]

I agree with Johann.

However....

the idea behind the touch/hand bite is to essentially snap your dog out of whatever they are focusing on so intently. Sometimes i do a little touch to the side of rocky's neck - but it isn't painful and it doesn't necessarily implicate "bad" things.

He is not afraid of our hands and I've used it a lot on walks mainly to get him to focus on me and not the dog, squirrel or person he is focusing on. You can also step in front of them to physically block the view of the other animal or whatever she isn't "leaving"

Just my thoughts.

Touching your dog to help them refocus is different than the hand bite thing that cesar milan is an advocate of. I'll give Johann a quick poke on the side (with my index finger) or step in front of him when he's staring down other dogs. The benefit to this is that it can be paired with verbal command such as "hey you" so that you can phase out the physical reminder of the command. I'm guessing that you do something similar to what I do...more of a "hey, up here dummy" poke than a "PAY ATTENTION NOW OR ELSE!" hand bite.

Reaching for the neck or collar area is a threatening behavior to many dogs (hence the training of collar grabs and "gotcha" that many puppy classes recommend). My fear with a young puppy would be that it could be painful (even if it's just a light tap) and thus the dog will have reason to worry about someone's hands reaching towards it's neck. Which could lead to the dog snapping when someone reaches out to pet him or grab his collar.

To the OP- another idea would be to work on a good "watch me" command. Our dog trainer had us teach this by taking a cookie and showing the dog. Stand and wait (for what seems like forever) until the dog looks away from the cookie and up at you. Click and treat. When you see him consistently starting to make eye contact with you, add the command "watch me". Once you get a very quick response in a low-stimulation environment, move into a busier place. Practice this with your dog sitting in front of you and also sitting at heel (totally different to the dog- so be patient when you switch around).

Another way to teach it is by taking a piece of treat (tiny piece, this takes a ton of repetitions) and holding it by our eyes and saying "watch me". When he looked at you, click/treat. Once he's solid with the idea of this, move into higher distraction environments (we practiced in petsmart and at the park). When he's 100% with the treat lure, you can start phasing out the lure.

We found the first way to be more effective in teaching Johann to actually look at us, not the treat. But, the 2nd method works for a lot of people too...so it may depend on the dog.

Good luck and stick with the training. Your puppy will get it eventually!

 

[dora]

I love the Cesar show, but I found the 'bite' hand thing does not at all work with my girl. I tried it a couple of times (not hard, just a poke to the neck) and she totally would get hyped up and wanted to nip and wrestle with me. But a quick poke on her back near her rear along with a 'hey!' and then 'Dora watch me' seems to work great! I think the neck must bring about a dominance response or something?

How old is your boxer? My girl tried to eat everything - sticks, cigarette butts, mulch! But she seemed to grow out of that around 8 months (she is 10 months now). She definitely listens better indoors, but is slowly getting better outdoors now that everything isn't so new anymore - oh, just another piece of mulch .. boring.

Another thing that I believe helped was that if I see something in our path that she starts focusing on, as we walk towards it I give the leave it command, if she still tries to pull towards it (we are still far enough away she cant get it), then I turn and go back other direction for about 10 steps or so. Then we start going towards again and repeat. She got it really fast that 'if I lunge for that 'snack' we won't keep walking' and will turn around so I better leave it.

 

[rrboxer]

Thanks everybody, I'll keep working with her with true 'positive reinforcement techniques' & I am not using any of Cesar Milan techniques as I'm new with training my puppy (5 mos) & I like to check in with ya'll before I try anything new. Sometimes I think that I'm worrying too much but I'd rather use this site as a sounding board because most everyone here has owned Boxers and know the breed. It is such a relief to visit here and ask questions and ask for advice or just talk about our Lacy.

 

[LILYLARUE]

I was once a fan of Cesar.........after many seminars and meeting the trainer who has to erase his techniques in aggressive dogs, (not aggressive before he put his hands on them), I have learned a lot.

I just spent a weekend with the great Dr. Ian Dunbar, the creator of positive training and he actually collabortated with him on Cesar's last book. He has not one good thing to say about his training. In fact, after meeting with Dr. Dunbar and several other well-reknowned trainers, not one has a positive thing to say about Cesar's training methods.

Cesar's training methods are from over 20 years ago. The method of inflicting pain and fear for your dog to "obey" you. Well, those methods have been proven wrong by many behaviorists and scientists since. The possibility of your dog retaliating against you is huge! Poke your friend in the arm for attention and just see how long it takes them to punch you back!

In positive training, YOU NEVER PUT YOUR HAND ON YOUR DOG NOR CAUSE FEAR!!! How is a dog to respect you and WANT to obey you if you use pain and fear?

The whole idea of positive training is that you get your dog to do what you want because the DOG WANTS TO DO WHAT YOU WANT. This can NOT be acheived with fear and pain. It can only happen if you treat your dog with respect as if he WERE your best friend. That everything he does is followed with positive things. If you were poked everytime you did something, would you WANT to do it ever again? If you were praised every time you do something, wouldn't you WANT to do it over and over?

Please, do NOT do any techniques that Cesar implements. Watch his show ONLY for entertainment. Do NOT put your hands on your dog in training, do NOT yell at your dog for any reason, and do NOT cause your dog to fear you. These methods do not work on humans and certainly not on a dog that can not give you feedback.

 

[Toasty]

If you do it properly it does NOT inflict pain and does NOT cause your dog to fear your hand.

I am all for teaching a dog the way a dog was/is naturally taught in the wild. My girls are neither afraid of me nor are they in pain when I do it. Like I said it is not meant to hurt at all. It's meant to startle. It's a "nip" in the dog world which is hardly traumatic.

 

[srennie]

I also use a 'poke' or 'bump' with my knee to snap my dogs out of something. It's not meant to cause pain, it's just sometimes they are so excited that my voice doesn't register so I need to use something else to get their attention off of whatever has them distracted.

Watching Cesar sometimes makes me nervous...I'll see him doing something and think, "Oh Lord, that dog is gonna freak out! What is he doing?" But, I do agree with his ideas of 'energy' and interpretation of body language. I volunteer at our local shelter and before I take any dog out I kneel down sideways by the run and 'feel' the dog and let the dog 'feel' me. If I get positive body language from the dog and I 'feel' good energy from them, then I know we'll be able to go out for a nice walk or jog or play in the yard. There are certain dogs that I will NOT sit down by the run because they project discomfort just as I'm walking by.

Funny thing is, I worked with dogs many years before Cesar had a show and I always did the same thing. If a dog was 'unsure' I'd sit sideways or with my back to it and wait for it to approach me. Once I felt like it trusted me, I knew I wouldn't get bit. In over 12 years of working with dogs I never received a serious bite (one that broke the skin) and only maybe 3 nips from a nervous dog. I do believe you can communicate much better wtih dogs if you just stop for a minute and 'feel' them. I think sometimes we use too many words and confuse them. A really good book that talks about that is "The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs." I believe it's by Patricia McConnell.

 

[dodgeandmar]

If you do it properly it does NOT inflict pain and does NOT cause your dog to fear your hand.

I am all for teaching a dog the way a dog was/is naturally taught in the wild. My girls are neither afraid of me nor are they in pain when I do it. Like I said it is not meant to hurt at all. It's meant to startle. It's a "nip" in the dog world which is hardly traumatic.

I agree. Mine aren't afraid of it. They just turn quickly and look at me like "Oh. My bad."