Bull Bashing

[JulieM]

I absolutely agree that many pitbulls are aggressive, and I agree that often it's genetic. I do not agree that it's the _breed_ - but rather, the irresponsible breeders who either don't know or don't care what they're breeding. Temperament is inherited - circumstances can have a profound and lasting effect, but the innate temperament is something the dog got from its parents. So anytime someone with an aggressive or unstable dog (of any breed) decides to breed it, or anytime someone with a stable, non-aggressive dog breeds it to a dog whose temperament they don't know, there is a chance of an unstable or aggressive puppy. (There is a chance with two stable, non-aggressive dogs too, of course, but it is minimal.) I think most of these aggressive pitbulls are coming from backyard breeders and puppy mills - many of whom are breeding specifically for aggressiveness. The reputable breeders, the ones who know the standard and breed their dogs to meet the standard, cannot afford to breed aggressive or unstable temperaments. Most of the breeders participate in dog shows, and while some ringside posturing is overlooked, a truly aggressive dog will not be tolerated. Of course, even these stable temperaments can be ruined by irresponsible owners who don't socialize or train the dog (which is true of any breed).

Considering this, I think that a large part of the problem is the lack of education of the public. Many people want pitbulls because of their reputation for aggression, which is a problem in and of itself. Many others want them for protection, but are not educated as to what temperament to look for, what questions to ask the breeder, etc. These people are told that the mother has to be locked in another room because she's protective of her 8-week-old puppies, but that's perfectly normal. The father is OK once he gets to know people, but he'll fight with the other dogs so you can look at him in the back yard. These are extreme warning signs, yet your average pet purchaser does not know this and so buys the cute little puppy, hoping it will keep them safe from burglars, and ends up facing a lawsuit and having to put the dog down because it bit the neighbor kid who walked into the backyard when the dog was out there.

Yes, it does get me riled - but not at you, Mike I get riled at the public who are unaware of the realities and responsibilities of owning a dog, at the media who fan the fires of breed legistlation (more people are bit by Cocker Spaniels than pitbulls, but you don't ever hear about a CS bite on the 6:00 news), at the breeders and puppymillers who take advantage of the unsuspecting buyer, and those who actually boast the fact that they have "Fighting Dogs". I don't agree with condemning the entire breed, although I would agree with condemning a majority of the "breeders" (and I use the term loosely).

Julie

 

[Jessica]

I do agree, it's the breeders and the owners, or lack of their education. My newest experience, my fine neighbors I posted about on page 1 of this topic had their male pit out all morning! I'm sure he snuck out of the yard somewhere, but the sad thing is he spent the entire morning in my yard. I called animal protection, but it took them two hours to arrive. I didn't realize he was there originally and wondered why Jake wanted out so badly, I started to open the back door and he charged at me! So, I slammed it shut and called the police. Zoe had to go potty so badly that I had to wait until he was no where in sight and go out with her and rush her back inside. It's a beautiful day, 60 degrees, and she LOVES to play outside, but no, I have to keep my dog locked in my house because of this animal. I finally saw them come home and they just put him back in the fence, well, five minutes later he's standing in my yard again. I think the animal protection officer finally knocked on their door, told them to keep their pet contained (He even looked terrified of the dog because it growled and stood him off from knocking on their door for several minutes), and I even heard him helping them fix the fence. The problem: their dogs have been getting out for three years, I highly doubt their fixed the problem in five minutes or less. It's just scary, Jason (hubby) said he was going to talk to them tonight, we need to be able to put our dogs out in our own yard without being terrified they're going to be torn apart. Plus, I'm somewhat hesitant about Zoe ever since that rottweiler attacked her on our walk in September, I don't think she'd think twice to attack first, even though she'd lose. Jessica
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Zoe-1/16/00, plain fawn, cropped, spayed, docked
Jake-2/3/98, yellow lab

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

Interesting topic. My experiences with pit bulls has been both positive and negative. Maggie plays with Juno, a 7 month old pit pup every day in the park. Juno is one of the sweetest little dogs around and has shown absolutely no signs of aggression whatsoever. In fact, Maggie is MUCH more aggressive than Juno. However, she has come across a pit pup that she was playing with one day and it just turned on her in an instant, going for her neck. Luckily at that time Maggie was still on leash and I grabbed her quickly and averted any physical injury. But it was very, very scary.

I'm always wary about letting Maggie play with Pits. I have to know them pretty well first. There is a couple who brings their 3 pits to the park each day. Two are rescue pits and all three are very well behaved and not aggressive unless some other dog become aggressive with them. But their responsible owners are ALWAYS in control of their dogs and NEVER let things get out of hand.

Interestingly, the most trouble Maggie has with aggressive dogs is with Labs. There are 3 labs (2 pups, one older) who come to the park all with different owners. All three are extremely aggressive and get into fights with all the dogs in the park. Of course, their irresponsible owners just stand there and do nothing except complain that my dog is too aggressive. Maggie was only protecting herself.

Another attacked Juno the other day and even as her daddy, Phil, was hovering over her, keeping her safe from the other Lab, the dog just kept coming at Juno and Phil and the dog's owner, a smart-*ss woman, just stood there yelling at Phil and not doing anything to call her dog off or attempt to take control of her dog. It was horrible. Phil was almost in tears over it (he's so protective of little Juno).

Right after that, the Lab came over and started biting and attacking Maggie. I was standing there and kicked at the Lab and he ran the other way. I then turned to the woman and told her that I wasn't nearly as nice as Phil and if that damned dog came anywhere near Maggie again, I'd kick the dog and her clear across that damned park! Needless to say, she got her dog and left the park. There was a round of cheering from the "parents" when she left!

So, my thoughts lean toward the irresponsible owners (and perhaps some breeders - especially BYBs) for not taking responsiblity for training their dog and conditioning and soclializing them properly. I've seen too may rescue pits who have been re-trained and have turned out just fine due to the hard work of responsible owners and trainers.

I just hate the thought of blaming the dog for something he really isn't responsible for. Makes me very angry. The same with Rotts. I think they have been used and trained for aggression too long and there are a lot of "bad" Rotts out there too. Years and years ago, it was German Shepards that were "bred" to be bad.

My best friend for many years had one of the first Akitas ever allowed out of China. It was a champion dog fighter and he had no idea, until it nearly killed a small poodle one evening, that this was what Akitas were bred to do. Dog fighting is a national sport in China and Akitas are the top fighters and are bred to kill (not just take down) other dogs. It was a frightening experience for Frank, but he got some good trainers to help him and he was able to "train" most of the aggression for other dogs out of the Akita. Otherwise, the dog was an absolute angel, loving and kind and so sweet with people - much like a boxer.

Anyway, just thought I'd add my 2cents worth in this interesting discussion. I hope something can be done to save the pit breed. When I look in the papers here at the classifieds for dogs for adoption, about 80% of them are for pit bulls. I presume it is because people don't do their research and no one tests for temperment, etc, and the get these aggressive dogs home and can't cope with it and give them up for adoption. It is very, very sad, I think.

 

[Sarah R]

To JulieM- the reason you don't hear about it when a cocker bites, or most other dogs for that matter, is because cockers don't typically maim or kill. You'll rarely come out of a srape with a Pit-bull without the battle scars to prove it. And while most of them go through their whole lives never having hurt anyone I still feel like the breed is too similar to a game of Russian roulette for my tastes.

 

[Kim Y]

Interesting that you bring up Labs and Rotties, Dan. Our best friends have a Rottie, Cody, who is now 10 years old. Cody is the gentlest, most lovable pooch. Our friends moved about five years ago to a more *rural* area. There were a few newer homes built on the street. One day, Cody was basking on the porch of HIS HOME and two chocolate labs from up the street quietly descended on him and tore him literally to bits. Mind you, Cody was five years old and not at all a small Rottie. He had to undergo emergency surgery and it was touch and go for a while but thankfully, he recovered. Poor baby. What happened to the owners of the Labs? Not a damn thing although my friends ended up taking them to small claims court to pay for the vet costs. Interestingly, the Labs still ran the hood until my friends noticed they were mysteriously absent for a time. They think the neighbors called Animal Control but everyone's lips were zipped on the subject. It was bad enough that Cody was attacked but there are also children that live on the street and I shudder to think what could have happened.

You're right, it's not the breed---it's the irresponsible people doing damage to the breed(s). It makes me, too, very sad. :(

 

[Lava Linda]

I used to own a pitbull (actually a Staffordshire) and a pitbull/rottie mix. They were wonderful dogs with my children, pets, and livestock.
One day I was walking them along the railroad tracks off-leash, when a rabbit went tearing by. They chased it out of sight, and I couldn't find them no matter how hard I looked. Since there's livestock in the area, it's NOT ok for dogs to be roaming. They can kill sheep, or get shot themselves just for being in a pasture.
I finally went back to my home on the edge of town. Hours later, a parade entered my yard. It was the Dixon police and Animal Control. They had captured the dogs after a long chase, and had shot Boss, the mixed breed, twice. They explained that they had to shoot him because when they cornered him in a chain link fenced yard and an officer grabbed for his collar, the dog snapped at him but missed. He snapped only once, by all accounts, at 3 uniformed strangers trying to trap and capture him. He managed to escape, so they shot him in the thigh and front paw as he ran away, then they ran him until he collapsed. His front paw had been shot sideways, through all the bones, and was the size of a cantalope.
Even with my employee discount, the vet bills were $500.

Boss, when he was outdoors, was confined with Casey in a run, with an elizabethan collar and a bright red cast up his front leg. The police drove into the yard half a dozen times over the next few weeks, with kids and parents in tow, asking the kids "Are these the dogs that bit you today?" They all said no, but we finally insisted they stop coming because eventually some confused kid was going to say "Yes"!!
It was ridiculous!!!! Why didn't they just ask the kids if the dog that bit them had a bright red cast and a huge plastic collar?!?!

Then came the fallout. The headline of the local paper was, "Outlaw Pitbulls Finally Captured", complete with our name and address. This was a lesson in the press, because the only details they had correct were our names and addresses. They had the wrong number of dogs, color of dogs, and sequence of events. It was quite eye-opening, but I digress...
We went to court to fight the charges of letting vicious dogs roam and for not having current licenses. My vet came to testify that they come into her office wagging tails, and jump onto the table when told, and that we've always vaccinated and neutered dutifully.
We won the case, and were only fined $20 for the licenses, which we paid on the way out of the courthouse.

A month later, the police came and arrested my husband in the middle of the night, on a warrant for violation of a restraining order. They told me he had probably been married and divorced before but never told me. Since we had been living together since we were 18, I highly doubted it, and told them as much. I said the only trouble we'd ever been in was the dogs, and could it be related to that? He said no, and they took my hubbie to jail, leaving me freaking out at home with my 9 month old son.
I had to drive 40 miles to bail him out at some creepy bail bonds office at midnight, imagining him catching AIDS in prison (this was in 1985), and it cost $200.

The next day we made a million phone calls. It turned out that the clerk to whom we had paid the $20, had misfiled the receipt. The judge thought we left without paying, and had cited us for contempt of court, hence the warrant.
We showed our copy of the receipt, and it was over.

We turned around and sued the city for $25,000 for the vet bills, the bail money, and false arrest. We were mad, more than anything else. We settled for $1500, feeling our point had been made.

Not too long afterwards, we decided to give them to relatives in the mountains, with no near neighbors. Even though the dogs were fine, I couldn't take the public pressure, which was enormous at that time in Northern California. Besides, my mom said she couldn't sleep, knowing my baby was in the house with "those two dogs".

Eventually, the true culprit pitbulls were found, but do you think the paper retracted the story about us in great big letters on the front page??? Yeah, right.
What a fiasco.

Last year when I took my boxers camping and someone freaked out because they looked like pitbulls, I decided to leave the dogs home next time. It's just not worth it, sadly.

 

[Chad and Mav]

that is one characteristic of a pit bull...to fight. i didnt know dogs could differiniate between types of fighting...but pit bulls fight to the death. i know Maverick plays, havent seen him fight yet but when he does, i hope his instincts will take over and fight to kill. i dont mean to sound mean or gung-ho, but what other kind of fighting is there??? how else are they supposed to protect themselves? to compare a Pit with your Boxer is not fair to ANY Pit!!! i mean, come on, Boxers are the best breed around!!!!! dont you agree?!?! i do! anyway, what i do with Mav is to keep him on the leash around other dogs if they are leashed to get to smell and what not. if the other dog is not on the leash, i take Mav off, he seems to be more protective and aggressive on the leash...its natural. dont know what else to say so im gonna go hang out with my dog!!!!! take care!

Chad and Mav

 

[Mike & Nala]

Chad

Actually I've already stated their is a different kind of fighting. Fighting for dominance which is not a fight to the death, is what almost all dogs do at some point. Also, believe me you don't want your dog to get into a fight at try to kill, because once they do, it is easier for them to do it next time. Also, checked out lawyer and vet bill lately?

Mike & Nala (The non-killing dominance fighting dog from hell)

 

[JulieM]

I understand the point that Cockers don't maim, although to a 5 year old child a Cocker bite is just as dangerous as a pit one. I don't agree, I think that you don't hear about Cocker bites because Cockers are "cute" and are not a popular dog-fight breed, but I understand your point.

As for fighting - all dogs fight to the death. Plain and simple. I know Boxers that have tried to kill other Boxers (owner intervention is the only thing that saved them), and I know a Boxer that killed a Chow. When dogs fight - any dog, of any sex, of any breed - they are trying to kill the other dog.

This is not to say that everything that is called fighting is a to the death affair. I use the term "scrapping" to define what Mike calls dominance fighting - the dogs are growling, barking, slashing, tearing, etc., but very little physical damage is done to the other dog - and it's typically on the top of the head or the face. Scraps are very loud and can go on for some time. A true "fight" - to the death - is quiet, serious, and fast. And terrifying.

Julie

 

[Aimee]

I don't know enough about the breed to comment but I do know that many of the shelters in my surrounding area do not adopt out any pit bulls...I can't say I agree with euthanizing an innocent animal but they are all put to death without even the consideration of new homes. Sadly enough, this is a strong statement to me regarding the breed.