Bull Bashing

[Lisa M]

Originally posted by Amy Lyn

As to what someone said above about her parents buying a pit from a shelter who later had to be returned. It's easy to blame the humane society for allowing this dog to be adopted out, but please remember, the people working at these shelters are usually volunteers. It is impossible for everyone to know every breed of dog out there, as well as mixes and every breed's personality. ... Most non-profit's don't have the funding or enough donations to run well as it is, let alone employ experts on every breed.

I'm sorry but the people working at the shelter are not all volunteers and though the shelter shouldn't have to hire "experts" on each breed, all who work there, volunteer or not, should be able to recognize a pit bull, it isn't hard. Most shelter workers are very familiar with the breed, our shelter is full of pits, and rotties. (Pits are illegal to own here so none are available for adoption). It sounded to me like they knew what kind of dog this was, liked its personality and behaved irrersponsibly to place it in a home with people who trusted their advice. I'm sorry that this happened, Kim. Glad they are ok though.

Even a well raised, proplerly bred pit bull with responsible owners could harm a child, elderly person or another pet. That is why responsible pit owners who are aware of the breed's ability to inflict damage when they bite do not bring them to dog parks, do not allow them to play with kids or roam freely and do not leave them in their yards unattended, etc.

 

[Lisa M]

Originally posted by JulieM
I absolutely agree that many pitbulls are aggressive, and I agree that often it's genetic. I do not agree that it's the _breed_ - but rather, the irresponsible breeders who either don't know or don't care what they're breeding. Temperament is inherited - circumstances can have a profound and lasting effect, but the innate temperament is something the dog got from its parents.

Yes, it does get me riled - but not at you, Mike I get riled at the public who are unaware of the realities and responsibilities of owning a dog, at the media who fan the fires of breed legistlation (more people are bit by Cocker Spaniels than pitbulls, but you don't ever hear about a CS bite on the 6:00 news), at the breeders and puppymillers who take advantage of the unsuspecting buyer, and those who actually boast the fact that they have "Fighting Dogs". I don't agree with condemning the entire breed, although I would agree with condemning a majority of the "breeders" (and I use the term loosely).

Julie

I agree to a degree. Temperment is important in many situations, but I still feel that even a well bred pit bull because of the history of the breed and the powerful bite (which I suspect can't or won't be bred out of the pit bull) can be a danger. I feel this way because ANY dog can bite, even a dog that has a great temperment and has never bitten before can become upset or feel threatened and can bite as a result.

Yes, more meida attention will be given to pit bites, this is because a cocker spaniel bite probably won't send you to the hospital. Our old trainer had rotties and she wouldn't let strangers pet or approach her dogs, she would just say, "They're in training right now". When I asked her why, she said something like, "How do I know if their kids won't pull on my dog's ears?. What I do know is that if my dog bites them as a result, it will be on the news, I'll be fined, they might be taken away from me, and I'll have added to the rotties troubles".

The facts seem to be that ...
All pits (regardless of who bred them) have a stong, powerful bite and once they bite, they will not let go, this is a trait of the breed. Any breed of dog with any temperment CAN bite under certain circumstances.

To me that means that responsible pit owners should not place thier dogs in situations where there is a greater likelyhood of a circumstance which may bring about a bite. Since I know a lot of pit owners are not responsible, I'm keeping my dogs away from them, I don't care how friendly one may be, my dogs or a child in my care may do something inadvertantly to provoke a bite and I know who will be harmed. Yes, any dog might bite my dog at the dog park, but I'll probably be able to walk away without a visit to the vet if it isn't a pit bite.

The breed has a powerful bite, that is just a fact, regardless of if it is an AKC pit, a champion pit or a BYB pit. What gets us into legislation issues is that people who own them often don't behave accordingly.

 

[Sarah R]

To JulieM- Surely you are joking about the bite of a cocker being just as dangerous to a five year old child as a pit-bull?
Also you are wrong about why cocker bites are not news worthy-it has nothing to do with a dog being cute. Dog bites are not news worthy because they are too common to sell news papers. A quote from a study by the AHA and the Center for Disease Control says "In 1994 an estimated 4.7 million persons sustained a dog bite, approximately 800,000
sought medical care" In 1986 dog bites were 12th among the leading cause of non-fatal injury in the US.
This being said dog bites just aren't news. But a vicious attack causing great injury or death is. I can't find any cocker statistics(which to me means it doesn't happen often enough to warrant them) but you can get pit-bull statistics
galore.
Interestly the Rottweiler has surpassed the pit in causing human fatalities though and the German Shepard is right up there. Part of this I'm sure would have to do with Rotties and GSD being more popular breeds thus greater numbers.

 

[Alisha Mobley]

Pitbulls

I didn't get to read all the posts but what little I did read I saw some saying Pits are bred to be aggressive and to bite and not let go. I also saw somewhere someone say they can be trained not to do this and be good pets. I guess my question is how can you train a dog not to be what it is genetically? If a dog is bred to be aggressive how can you train it not to be, isn't it just there? If aggression is a Pitbull trait won't it always be there? I guess I'm comparing them to the Boxer's trait of jumping or kidney beaning. I have trained my Boxer's not to jump on people but when they get very excited they still tend to do this unless I stop them (usually by placing them into a down), which is completely understandable because it's a trait of the breed. For kidney beaning I couldn't imagine trying to train that out of them (wouldn't want to anyway ).

I haven't been around Pitbulls very often, in fact I can only think of 2. A neighbor of ours has a white one that is about a year old. She keeps it inside and the only time I see it is when she is walking it on a leash (I did see it a couple of times back last summer playing in her yard with her daughter who is about 17). I pet this dog once when she first got it and it seemed nice, I have never seen it act agressive. My aunt had one about 15 years ago. She kept hers inside also. It was very people friendly but was agressive towards other animals. It bit their cats in half and after it killed their little chauwawa (spelling ?) her son took it to the back of their land and shot it. I never could understand why it was so friendly towards people but would kill other animals. We had a Siberian Husky at the time and it got into a fight with my aunts Pitbull one day. Our Husky was fighting like normal dogs (I guess) but the Pitbull latched onto our dogs throat and never let up. Luckily our dog had very thick hair and was not injured at all. My uncle was kicking his dog and hitting him in the head with a shovel but it would not let go. Some neighbors brought down a 5 gallon bucket of water and dumped on the dogs and he let go. My uncle had his dog on a leash the whole time and as soon as they stopped fighting the Pitbull just stood there like nothing happened. It was like he snapped and was a different dog then after it was over he was his normal self again.

All I know about them is mainly what I have read her on the board and if they are bred to be aggressive I wouldn't think it would matter who raised them they should be considered dangerous.

 

[JulieM]

Any breed of dog with any temperment CAN bite under certain circumstances.

True - but a dog with a stable temperament will typically have a higher bite threshold, and a dog who has learned bite inhibition will not cause as much damage as a dog which won't.

To me that means that responsible pit owners should not place thier dogs in situations where there is a greater likelyhood of a circumstance which may bring about a bite. Since I know a lot of pit owners are not responsible, I'm keeping my dogs away from them, I don't care how friendly one may be, my dogs or a child in my care may do something inadvertantly to provoke a bite and I know who will be harmed. Yes, any dog might bite my dog at the dog park, but I'll probably be able to walk away without a visit to the vet if it isn't a pit bite.

I agree, but I feel it should apply to responsibe dog owners, of any breed. A dog is a dog is a dog. While some dogs might bite more readily than others, all dogs bite. As far as a pit bite (to your dog) being the only one that might require a vet visit - well, I know you were making a point but I'm sure you realize that a Rottweiler or a Doberman or a GSD (or, frankly, any dog that was serious about it) could send your dog to the vet. The main factor is not the breed of the dog, it's the intention of the bite.

All pits (regardless of who bred them) have a stong, powerful bite and once they bite, they will not let go, this is a trait of the breed....The breed has a powerful bite, that is just a fact, regardless of if it is an AKC pit, a champion pit or a BYB pit. What gets us into legislation issues is that people who own them often don't behave accordingly.

The same can be said for Boxers. Boxer have a very powerful bite, they were bred to hold on and not let go (hence the upturned nose), that is just a fact regardless of who bred them. IMO Boxers have gentler temperaments in general (meaning they are not as quick to bite, and they bounce back quicker), and so we do not have the problems that pits have.

To JulieM- Surely you are joking about the bite of a cocker being just as dangerous to a five year old child as a pit-bull?

No, I'm not joking. All other factors being equal (temperament of the dog, socialization, etc.), if a Cocker bites a 5 year old child in the face, that child will require medical care and probably surgery, the same as a pit bull bite. There will be differences in bite placement, etc. due to the different muzzles.

Also you are wrong about why cocker bites are not news worthy-it has nothing to do with a dog being cute.

Actually, I can't be wrong about that because it's my opinion. Unless, of course, you work for the major networks and have an official statement from them

Dog bites are not news worthy because they are too common to sell news papers. A quote from a study by the AHA and the Center for Disease Control says "In 1994 an estimated 4.7 million persons sustained a dog bite, approximately 800,000
sought medical care" In 1986 dog bites were 12th among the leading cause of non-fatal injury in the US.
This being said dog bites just aren't news.

Maybe not where you come from, but where I've lived there are new reports of pit or Rottweiler or some other big dog bites weekly. Not attacks, just bites. (Yes, sometimes there are attacks, I won't deny that, but typically we just get stories that a pit bull bit someone.) I am talking television news, here. Pits are a hot button for the general public - pit bite stories get ratings, and that's what TV is all about. Nobody is going to stay tuned to hear about a Cocker bite, but mention a pit bite and people are glued to the TV, and up in arms about it for days afterward.

I can't find any cocker statistics(which to me means it doesn't happen often enough to warrant them) but you can get pit-bull statistics galore.

Ask your vet. That is where the real statistics about dog bites should be coming from. Pits are often trained to bite, or are "sicced" on people, or are defending themselves or their territory or their property. A dog should be able to be examined in a vet's office without biting (extreme pain is an exception) - even someone with "protection" dogs would not order them to attack the vet. Yet more vets are bitten by Cockers (and I think the top breed is Chihuahuas) than pits.

This will probably get people riled, which is not my intention as I don't have a lot of time to spend on the board these days, but perhaps some education will come of it.

Julie

[Edited by JulieM on 01-12-2001 at 07:04 PM]

 

[Jazzmin'mom]

Pitbulls

I really love the look and normal temperment of the pitbull. I say normal temperment because they do have lovely personalities and most cases of agression are the fault of the owner. I considered getting a pit before I got Jazz and the thing that swayed me was that if I ever needed to I could subdue a boxer if for some reason attacked my kids but I knew that I would not be able to do same with a pit. I have seen a pit attack a person and it took 5 rather large men to get the dog away from the person and even then it was not subdued but going in for a second attack. It was shot by a police officer before it got to. The person had extensive wounds (it almost bit off his arm. There was a pit attack outside my friends house the other night and the 4 owners (two for each dog)could neither stop the fight or control their dogs. These owners were adults. It took them beating one of the dogs with a huge bone (cow thigh) about 10 lbs, to separate and one person was injured. I think that they are potentially dangerous dogs and should wear a muzzle when in public. I put a muzzle on Jazz when we go to the school to pick up the kids because it is mandatory. It is for her protection as much as it is for the kids. People must remember that you can never truly know what any dog is thinking and just like any other animal, they can do things we would never have thought possible - good and bad.

 

[Amy Lyn]

Originally posted by Lisa M
I'm sorry but the people working at the shelter are not all volunteers and though the shelter shouldn't have to hire "experts" on each breed, all who work there, volunteer or not, should be able to recognize a pit bull, it isn't hard. Most shelter workers are very familiar with the breed, our shelter is full of pits, and rotties.

I'm not saying that this shelter was not negligent or didn't give a pup out in bad faith, BUT, as a society we are easy to blame another instead of taking responsibility for some of our own negligence. Quite a few years ago I adopted a dog out of a shelter that nearly disfigured my face. It was a full breed dog, but did I do the research on it? No, I was so excited to get a dog and fill that part of my life that I went, picked one out and took it home. I should have either done the research or, like I did do, blame myself for going in blindly. I knew that this dog's history was one big blank page to everyone, including myself, but I chose to take that risk. What I feel lucky for is that a family with a five year old girl was looking at this dog and was going to get it. Instead, I got it and THANK GOD. If I didn't, who knows what it would have done to this little girl. Either way, going to the shelter is a risk - yes, a lot of great, great dogs come out, but that isn't always the case. Every worker cannot know the history or predict the future of an animal in its' care. Not only that, but I used to be along the line of thinking that a pit was only as good as its' owner and that a pit could live a nonaggressive life if it was raised right. Now I know that they have these genes in them that make them more prone to aggression in situations as opposed to other dogs, regardless of how well they are raised. Some volunteer working on some arbitrary day could have been of that mind and felt that Kim Y's parents looked like responsible loving people and could raise a pit right, as I'm sure they are. Pit's personalities and character traits are so controversial, that most of the population does not know the facts of this breed. You may know what a pit looks like (and pit puppies are not that distinguishable from some other breeds' puppies), but if you have your facts wrong about the breed, something like this could happen. I am certainly sorry that this happened to her parents, it is a horrible experience to have to go through, but people should take these experiences and learn from them instead of placing blame. Either way, my post wasn't meant to attack her in any way and this post isn't meant to create a debate about someone else's experience. I just wanted you to know where I was coming from with my original post.

 

[Jazzmin'mom]

pit bite vs other dog bites

I don't mean to step on any toes here and this is my own opinion based on experience. I have been around alot of pits in my younger days. I will admit many were agressive dogs and bred that way but some were very sociable and gentle but the one thing I noticed about pretty much all of the ones that I have seen in fights is that pits do not generally bite - they attack. With regards to a cocker bite being just as dangerous to a 5 year old I must disagree. My 6 year old was bitten by a Golden (sadly, my own dog) on the face a couple of weeks ago, he got away lucky with scratches and one small puncture (no need for hospital) but I can pretty much guarantee that if it had been a pit my son would have been in deep trouble. They seem to do everything whole hog. When they love you they do it with their entire being and would die protecting their owner but in the same respect, when pushed to attack, an sometimes it does not take much, they give it everything they have. Also, based on insurance company statistics, Goldens and Labs are in the top 5 for biting. Pits are not even in the top five. This is because Goldens and Labs tend to be the most popular among families with house insurance. I know, any dog can attack and even possibly kill but I have never heard of a boxer killing or maiming a person. Again, most of this is based on what I have seen, except the stats - they are from my insurance company, I don't totally trust any animal 100 percent but I am extremely wary around pits and Rotts for that matter just because of the potential damage they can cause with minimal effort.

 

[Sarah R]

To JulieM- Surely you are joking about the bite of a cocker being just as dangerous to a five year old child as a pit-bull?

No, I'm not joking. All other factors being equal (temperament of the dog, socialization, etc.), if a Cocker bites a 5 year old child in the face, that child will require medical care and probably surgery, the same as a pit bull bite. There will be differences in bite placement, etc. due to the different muzzles.
Nobody is going to stay tuned to hear about a Cocker bite, but mention a pit bite and people are glued to the TV, and up in arms about it for days afterward.
[Edited by JulieM on 01-12-2001 at 07:04 PM] [/B]

To JulieM- all factors between a pit-bull and a cocker will never be equal. I am aware that cockers, and many other small breeds for that matter, top the lists of dog bites, this is common knowledge. But of all dog bite fatalities from 1979-1998 the Cocker Spaniel accounted for one of them while the pit-bull accounted for 76. I'm talking deaths here, not bites. Of the fatalities between 1997-98, 70% were children and none of these was caused by a cocker. So being the mother of three young children; one who is five, I would stress caution where the cocker is concerned but I probably won't be in fear for their lives. Also less then 25% of all bites require medical attention so your bite theory about _probable_ surgery by the cocker seem somewhat dramatic.
People stayed interested in the story about the pit-bull attack because it stricks fear in their hearts. It's hard to muster an image of a roving band of killer cockers. You're right-just too cute.

For anyone who is interested the web site for the Centers for Disease Control is http://www.cdc.gov then type in dog bites.
5 boxers have been involved in 3 fatalities just showing us that anything is possible.

 

[JulieM]

To JulieM- all factors between a pit-bull and a cocker will never be equal.

Well, no, but I'm talking if both dogs are socialized adequately, responsibly bred, trained, bite inhibited, etc. These can easily be equal in all breeds of dogs, if the owners and breeders take the time.

I am aware that cockers, and many other small breeds for that matter, top the lists of dog bites, this is common knowledge. But of all dog bite fatalities from 1979-1998 the Cocker Spaniel accounted for one of them while the pit-bull accounted for 76. I'm talking deaths here, not bites.

Well, then that's where our disagreement lies. I'm talking bites, not deaths. And, frankly, while I've forgotten the original post I made, I still feel that the pitbull as a dog and as a *breed* is not to blame, but the irresponsible or just plain ignorant breeders and owners are.

Of the fatalities between 1997-98, 70% were children and none of these was caused by a cocker.

This, then, would lead me to believe that parents need to educate their children on how to behave around dogs.

Also less then 25% of all bites require medical attention so your bite theory about _probable_ surgery by the cocker seem somewhat dramatic.

So does the ban of a breed because one dog hurt someone.

People stayed interested in the story about the pit-bull attack because it stricks fear in their hearts. It's hard to muster an image of a roving band of killer cockers. You're right-just too cute.

Right. And that's why people think pitbulls are aggressive dogs, and that's why breed legislation and bans are taking place. A pit attack is fierce, no denying it, and the media plays up even minor incidents to the point of public outcry. (IMO, the news is no better than a tabloid, but that's another discussion )

And as far as muzzling pits when they're in public? If the dog has repeatedly shown aggression, maybe, but to muzzle all pits for no reason other than breed is akin to requiring men to wear handcuffs in public because they might rob someone. If you really feel this way, you might jump at a chance to live in Germany, as that is what they are requiring of all bull-type breeds.

Julie