Breeding

[GoofyGirl]

:confused: Macca...
Have you read this whole thread?
Have you read line for line everyone's responses?

I'm sorry if I sound irritable but it is before 7 am here and judging from your response - you have not addressed ANY of the issues brought up by your post - I have to think that maybe you havent fully woken up either.........

 

[mdowling]

Originally posted by Jeanne
Every vet will tell a client their pup/dog is a beautiful specimen, that doesn't mean the vet knows diddly about whether it is a *correct* speciman. That's one reason we show, and we have our dogs and their pedigrees evaulated by judges and older more experienced breeders. These puppy producers are also not going to spend which can amount to thousands of (US) dollars in testing fees. My boy has had tests so far that have cost me in the neighborhood of $900 and we aren't done yet. Add the costs to show him to CH, and we have a lot of time effort and money into assuring that this dog is breeding quality and will produce puppies a credit to the breed with a reasonable (as we can get it) expectation of long healthy lives.

That's the point i'm getting at, I want a dog for my family not to show in Westminster. If you love showing your dog that's great for you. I have no intentions of doing it, I don't feel it should be necessary to pay $900 for a dog with a fifth generation pedigree. To play fetch with in the park, and do all the things people do with their pets.

To answer some questions about bringing home a grown dog from rescue with my 15 month old son. A grown dog could physically kill my son if he snapped. A puppy couldn't, when you take a dog home from rescue you'll never know that dogs tempermant. With a puppy I have the opportunity to develop the puppies tempermant as much as possible. Plus as he grows with my son into a grown dog he'll be well adjusted to my son. I'll tell a quick story about my father bringing home a dog from the shelter when I was kid. The dog was a doberman pinscher, lived with a family with children for six years. No i'll tempermant, no behavioral problems, overall an excellent dog. Two hours after my dad let the dog in our house it bit my babysitter, and my brother very badly, the dog had snapped it was later put to sleep. So while there are many people with wonderful stories of animals that worked great from rescue. You have to realize there are some that don't work out. And that's a risk I'm not willing to take with my son. When he's older sure I would adopt a dog but when they're babies I want the puppies to be raised alongside my children.

 

[JulieM]

That's the point i'm getting at, I want a dog for my family not to show in Westminster. If you love showing your dog that's great for you. I have no intentions of doing it, I don't feel it should be necessary to pay $900 for a dog with a fifth generation pedigree. To play fetch with in the park, and do all the things people do with their pets.

Do you think that show dogs do not play in the park? Do you think that "just pet" dogs do not have "fifth generation" pedigrees? If you don't feel it should be necessary to pay $900 for a dog, would you feel it should be necessary to pay twice that for hip surgery? Or would you just have the dog killed (or, as most people like to say, "put to sleep")? Paying a little more for a dog at purchase is an investment in the quality of the dog, and usually means that you end up paying less over the life of the dog. (Provided, of course, that you're paying more because you're buying from a reputable breeder, not that you're paying more to buy from a pet store or a savvy byb.) Just like paying $35 for a pair of jeans generally means they'll last longer than a $10 pair of jeans - and so you get more for your money in the long run.

And, of course, playing fetch in the park is no fun when the dog drops dead at 2 years old doing it.

As for the Rescues - you have to remember that Rescues screen their dogs (and their homes) much more thoroughly than shelters do - they want the dog to go to a forever home, whereas a shelter needs to make room for the next dog. And quite often you *do* know the history of a Rescue dog, as they are frequently owner-surrenders. If you are not comfortable getting a Rescue dog that is your perogative, but it certainly is an option - and valid one for most people, even those with small children.

 

[Boxer_21]

Originally posted by mdowling
That's the point i'm getting at, I want a dog for my family not to show in Westminster. If you love showing your dog that's great for you. I have no intentions of doing it, I don't feel it should be necessary to pay $900 for a dog with a fifth generation pedigree. To play fetch with in the park, and do all the things people do with their pets.

Like I said before, the breeders that charge the $900 for puppies are normally the ones that do all of the appropriate testing, such as testing the heart and hips (joints). So in reality, that $900 would ensure that you'd be able to play fetch in the park throughout your dogs life. Not just when he's a puppy.

To answer some questions about bringing home a grown dog from rescue with my 15 month old son. A grown dog could physically kill my son if he snapped. A puppy couldn't, when you take a dog home from rescue you'll never know that dogs tempermant. With a puppy I have the opportunity to develop the puppies tempermant as much as possible. Plus as he grows with my son into a grown dog he'll be well adjusted to my son.

It is to my understanding that dogs brought into rescues are tested with different situations to see what their reactions are. If they even once made a hint that they woud not be good with children, they would not adopt out to a family with young kids. I'd also like to say that puppies may not be able to kill your son, but a puppy can still do serious damage if left unsupervised. Not to mention responsible breeders (not BYB) won't breed dogs with a bad temperment. Many BYB'ers will without giving it a second thought.
A puppy is a product of his parents, and his grandparents, and great grandparents, etc. Each dog passes genes down to the next generation. Without having the testing and evalulations done, how do you know that he doesn't bad temperments in his lines?? How do you KNOW that he will never snap at one point??


I'll tell a quick story about my father bringing home a dog from the shelter when I was kid. The dog was a doberman pinscher, lived with a family with children for six years. No i'll tempermant, no behavioral problems, overall an excellent dog. Two hours after my dad let the dog in our house it bit my babysitter, and my brother very badly, the dog had snapped it was later put to sleep. So while there are many people with wonderful stories of animals that worked great from rescue. You have to realize there are some that don't work out. And that's a risk I'm not willing to take with my son. When he's older sure I would adopt a dog but when they're babies I want the puppies to be raised alongside my children.

I'm sorry to hear about that tragic story, but that's certainly not an every day event. I've never heard of a story ending like that, but I've heard numorous stories about successful adoptions.

 

[KC]

I'm sure we can all share lots of stories of dogs who were brought up with their families "snapping" too. I disagree that there is more risk with a rescue. There is risk with either. The only dog bite I ever had came from a dog that we reared from a puppy. The puppy that can't seriously injure your 15 month old now is about 6 months away from being able to seriously injure your 21 month old.

When you are talking about getting a puppy, the old adage is true "you get what you pay for."

My $250 Lexy, who I bought before I knew better, will not live a long life. You see, she has a congenital heart defect that is genetic. One of her parents passed it to her. But, the breeders didn't know because they didn't test because they wanted to supply us "play fetch" folks with more reasonably priced dogs.

Thanks a lot to them for the favor - the same favor of which you speak.

Unfortunatly in my situation - not even twice the price of a correctly bred dog is going to fix my baby. It's going to kill her.

 

[Sube Ru's mom]

Originally posted by mdowling


That's the point i'm getting at, I want a dog for my family not to show in Westminster. If you love showing your dog that's great for you. I have no intentions of doing it, I don't feel it should be necessary to pay $900 for a dog with a fifth generation pedigree. To play fetch with in the park, and do all the things people do with their pets.

When you pay a "cheap" price for a dog you get a dog that is worth that amount, meaning- if you buy a byb pup which is a "cheap" dog you are going to get a dog that is faulty, just like a car, you buy a 500.00 dollar car dont get mad when you keep forking out thousands and thousands of dollars on the car because it is not running right, you have to look at yourself, you didnt want to pay for quality so you dont get quality. You pay now or you pay later. you pay 900.00 to have a health and hip certified dog or you pay 3500. on up for vet bills for hip replacements or heart problem

Originally posted by mdowling
To answer some questions about bringing home a grown dog from rescue with my 15 month old son. A grown dog could physically kill my son if he snapped.

A 6 month old puppy can do this also. Bailey at 6 months was 40 pounds, she could do damage to your son. and SHE WAS A PUPPY. Again i stress, if you dont work in rescue, associate with rescue or own a rescue you have no basis to back up your statement, WE, rescue, work with these dogs for a long time before they get adopted out to evaluate them and see how they react to certain situations. We are careful what home we place the dog in because we care about the DOG not the OWNER

Originally posted by mdowling
A puppy couldn't, when you take a dog home from rescue you'll never know that dogs tempermant. With a puppy I have the opportunity to develop the puppies tempermant as much as possible.

This is such a sad statement. Temperment is BRED. If you get a dog from a BYB you have no idea the temperment in the parents and grandparents/ the parents might seem fine but if the grandparent had any aggression issues it gets passed down the line! You can not guarantee that a puppy you get, if your child goes and pulls on its ears that it will not turn on the child.

Originally posted by mdowling
Plus as he grows with my son into a grown dog he'll be well adjusted to my son. I'll tell a quick story about my father bringing home a dog from the shelter when I was kid. The dog was a doberman pinscher, lived with a family with children for six years. No i'll tempermant, no behavioral problems, overall an excellent dog.

Again this was bred or the previous home did something to this dog, a smell can make a dog turn all of a sudden, there is no 100% guarentee that the dog you get will have a great temperment unless it is bred into them. But that is why rescues work so hard on evaluating these dogs and placing them in the "right" home. Subi could turn also, she is a byb, there is no guarantee that she wont. but it is my job as a parent to always be around her and my child and supervise. Also 15 month old child should not be left alone with a dog in the first place.

Originally posted by mdowling
Two hours after my dad let the dog in our house it bit my babysitter, and my brother very badly, the dog had snapped it was later put to sleep.

I am very sorry to hear this.

Originally posted by mdowling
So while there are many people with wonderful stories of animals that worked great from rescue. You have to realize there are some that don't work out. And that's a risk I'm not willing to take with my son. When he's older sure I would adopt a dog but when they're babies I want the puppies to be raised alongside my children.

I hope for your sake your dog never turns on your child, but unfortuantly that is a risk you take with a byb dog. you never know.

 

[GoofyGirl]

Mdowling:
The point in a nutshell?
Well bred dogs don't "snap".

 

[Sube Ru's mom]

FURTHERMORE- before promting BYB's and the products they produce, maybe you should come stay with KC, Myself, Zachs mom and MANY MORE and see what we have to go through because people didnt want to pay a lot so there was a demand for a "cheaper" pup, thereby putting byb's in business.
Come see the heartache that we deal with on a daily basis.
Also check out the rainbow bridge forum, there are plenty of stories about dogs dying at young ages because they were byb pups.
These dogs look great until they get a little older and collapse or have GENITAL (coming from the genes) defects.

 

[KC]

I think you mean GENETIC (coming from genes) - however it certainly is a GENITAL (sexual organ) problem when you get right down to it!!!! :D

 

[mdowling]

Originally posted by Sube Ru's mom


When you pay a "cheap" price for a dog you get a dog that is worth that amount, meaning- if you buy a byb pup which is a "cheap" dog you are going to get a dog that is faulty, just like a car, you buy a 500.00 dollar car dont get mad when you keep forking out thousands and thousands of dollars on the car because it is not running right, you have to look at yourself, you didnt want to pay for quality so you dont get quality. You pay now or you pay later. you pay 900.00 to have a health and hip certified dog or you pay 3500. on up for vet bills for hip replacements or heart problem



A 6 month old puppy can do this also. Bailey at 6 months was 40 pounds, she could do damage to your son. and SHE WAS A PUPPY. Again i stress, if you dont work in rescue, associate with rescue or own a rescue you have no basis to back up your statement, WE, rescue, work with these dogs for a long time before they get adopted out to evaluate them and see how they react to certain situations. We are careful what home we place the dog in because we care about the DOG not the OWNER



This is such a sad statement. Temperment is BRED. If you get a dog from a BYB you have no idea the temperment in the parents and grandparents/ the parents might seem fine but if the grandparent had any aggression issues it gets passed down the line! You can not guarantee that a puppy you get, if your child goes and pulls on its ears that it will not turn on the child.



Again this was bred or the previous home did something to this dog, a smell can make a dog turn all of a sudden, there is no 100% guarentee that the dog you get will have a great temperment unless it is bred into them. But that is why rescues work so hard on evaluating these dogs and placing them in the "right" home. Subi could turn also, she is a byb, there is no guarantee that she wont. but it is my job as a parent to always be around her and my child and supervise. Also 15 month old child should not be left alone with a dog in the first place.



I am very sorry to hear this.



I hope for your sake your dog never turns on your child, but unfortuantly that is a risk you take with a byb dog. you never know.

First off I never leave my son alone with my puppy I never said that I did, but a grown dog with one bite can do terrible damage. Reardless of your opinion when my puppy is 6 months old, he will have lived with my son for four months. And be better adjusted to him, so it does lessen the risk, are you seriously going to argue that it is in no way better to raise a puppy with a child. Than it is to bring home a full grown dog to co-habitate with your young child. It's common knowledge that it is. You all act like if you get a puppy from BYB it's destined to be faulty. I'm sorry you're wrong not every BYB puppy is defective. My dog murphy was a wheaton terrier, bought from a BYB when I was six, you're right his hips did go eventually, when he was seventeen and had to be euthenized. I've had BYB dogs my whole life, they've all been great dogs and lived long healthy lives. I haven't had trouble yet. I always trained my dogs, took them to vets gotten them fixed, and provide loving homes to these dogs. Should they just be thrown away because they're one inch to tall of the "boxer standard" and not "show quality" it all sounds a bit snobbish to me.