Breeding

[JulieM]

If you have two good dogs breeding them and finding them good homes can do a great service for families out there who want a boxer, but can't afford AKC certified breeders prices.

If you don't show and don't test, how do you know you have two good dogs?

If the families can't afford "AKC certified breeder" prices (there's no such thing, btw), how will they afford the $2000 surgery on dysplastic hips, or the $150 per month medication for boxer cardiomyopathy?

My wife surprised me with a puppy I'm guessing from a "backyard breeder" because of the low price. She met the parents they were both boxers, very sociable and friendly. I took him to the vet to get a checkup, shots, and worm check. The vet told me he was a beautiful dog, and physically great condition. So my family got a great puppy for a smaller price, the breeder got some extra cash.

Well, I sincerely hope that you are one of the lucky ones whose "low priced" dog doesn't end up costing more in vet bills and heartache because of a genetic condition that might have been avoided, had the parents been screened. (Of course, if you do it right there's no such thing as "extra cash," which is why most bybs don't do it right.)

I don't think she's contributing to overpopulation because her puppies sell fast and find homes.

Puppies usually do sell fast, especially if they are "bargain" priced. Ask the Rescue groups how many puppies they get in - very few! It is when these (usually untrained) puppies hit adolescence, or when they get sick, that they are abandonded to Rescues. Unless she takes back every puppy she's ever sold, at any time and for any reason, she most certainly is contributing to the overpopulation problem.

I have a small child so for me bringing home a full grown dog wasn't an option as it isn't for most people.

Not sure about that - why is bringing home a full grown dog not an option?

So what's wrong with breeding dogs for families? isn't this what they did for hundreds of years before just recently?

Well, "recently" is relative. True, in the grand scheme of things, over the tens of thousands of years that dogs have been associated with humans, breeding was random (and not even controlled by humans). However, in the last 200 years or so, since the purposeful, human-controlled development of specialized breeds, dogs were bred for jobs, not for families. There was *always* a purpose for the breeding, other than making money or supplying a market. It is only in the last few decades - and primarily only in this country - that dog breeding has become a major capital enterprise, profit-driven and high-volume. Much to the detriment of the dogs, I might add. This is precisely why we have 100-lb Boxers and those with muzzles 1/2 the length of the head.

 

[Eric J]

MDowling,
I refer you to the rules you agreed to abide by when you registered.

"Please note that the following topics are inappropriate on this Boxer World Board:
...discussion of breeding practices that would be deemed by most to be unethical or irresponsible (this would include, but is not limited to, breeding white Boxers, breeding young dogs, breeding untested dogs, breeding for any purpose other than to improve the breed and/or your line); advertising or looking for dogs for stud or brood; advertising puppies for sale; and solicitations"

That should answer your question " So what's wrong with breeding dogs for families? isn't this what they did for hundreds of years before just recently?"
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"I don't think she's contributing to overpopulation because her puppies sell fast and find homes."

This is where you end up with rescue/abandonded dogs, or dogs with severe health problems and a lesser quality of life, since the breeders couldn't be bothered to do the proper testing.
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"I have a small child so for me bringing home a full grown dog wasn't an option as it isn't for most people."

I couldn't disagree more. The reason rescues check you out and fit the dog's personality to the family, is so if you have children, they only will let you take home a dog that is ALREADY good with kids. Check out any of the rescue links you see in other posters signature blocks, I bet you when you get to the description of the dogs in rescue, they will mention how they are with children. It is a big concern to place rescue dogs in a "forever home", to do that it must fit, if not it is just "another home".

 

[Debbie Magon]

Macca, I see you are down in Dunedin! I am located in Hastings.
Who bred your bitch?
The reality of breeding Boxers in NZ is a little different from larger countries as we dont have ALL the health testing available but we do have elbows, hips and hearts that are done at the top veterinary clinics.
If your female is an unregistered , unknown quantity you have no background on which to establish a correct picture of her history.
Same will go for the male you are considering at stud.
Here in lies a huge set of problems .
Firstly both the bitch and dog may well be carrying recessive genes for all sorts of medical problems.
These problems become the puppies problems and they are the ones that end up suffering a life of misery , pain etc.

Boxers are well known for heart defects and no boxer should ever be bred from unless you are certain of all their ancestors histories, Both sides.

If you do go ahead with this breeding one of your biggest headaches will be "Can the bitch give birth by herself?"
Many New Zealand boxers are now requiring emergency C sections at no small cost to the owner, Try $1200 for my last one!!! And that was before we even got to the milk formulas , medicines and lost wages due to staying home for 4 weeks to care for them!

Of course the actual c section and bills are not the end of your worries!
OH NO!
Many bitches refuse to feed or care for these pups as they dont recognise them as their own! Ever sat up round the clock trying to tube or bottle feed pups? Ever tried to get a tiny pup to poop because the bowels have "shut down?"
Can you stay awake for days on end to feed these tiny babies?
Ever seen a mother dog so stressed out and desperate she actually kills her own pups!!
Its terrifying!!

Well if you think all this is BS then think again.

Also just to ice the cake so to speak, in NZ we have a policy called the Consumers Protection Act.
This means that if you sell a goods or service they must come up to the standard they were intended for.
In other words if you sell a pet boxer and it gets Hip displasia, aortic stenosis or any of the many things that can and often do go wrong, YOU can be sued!!
It can and does happen here now and it has become a breeders worst nightmare as we have no control how people look after the pups we spent weeks slaving over!

If your bitch has registration with the New Zealand kennel Club try to locate her breeder and have a really good talk to them.
Get yourself registered as a member of NZKC also and find a registered stud dog .
Get the health tests done, find out all the history you can and then have a big old think about it.
Bitches and pups even whelped naturally require and enormous amount of care and money.
They are NOT like a mutt who can spit out 10 pups in a hedge , survive on a slab of greasy pet roll and the pups all make it!!
Email me privately if you wish to discuss this further, as I may know your bitches background if she was bred by a registered breeder here.

 

[Boxer_21]

Originally posted by mdowling
I don't know if I agree with everyone here. If you have two good dogs breeding them and finding them good homes can do a great service for families out there who want a boxer, but can't afford AKC certified breeders prices.

I used to see the same thing. "That much money for a puppy???" You've got to be kidding me!!!" Then I educated myself and found out that the money you pay is going directly into your dog. The money is not going to the breeder. By paying more money for your dog, you're actually ensuring a longer, healthier life for your puppy because it has had all of the proper testing done, which does add up rather quickly. If you can't afford to buy a HEALTHY dog who HAS been bred and deemed clear of all hereditary diseases and other illnesses, then maybe you should check out a rescue first. Backyard breeders breed dogs purely for profit. They don't have their dogs or the puppies in mind, all they have in mind is $$$. As long as people keep buying from them, they will continue to breed litter after litter. Many of these dogs do suffer from diseases and illnesses which could've been prevented and many of which are prevented by responsible breeders who do all the testing.

She met the parents they were both boxers, very sociable and friendly. I took him to the vet to get a checkup, shots, and worm check. The vet told me he was a beautiful dog, and physically great condition. So my family got a great puppy for a smaller price, the breeder got some extra cash.

It's good that your wife got to meet the parents, but just because they were nice and sociable doesn't mean they're healthy. You can't see what's going on inside of these dogs. They could both have heart disease or they could have bad genes in their bloodlines, but how would you be able to tell without seeing it in writing?? It's good that your vet said he's a beautiful dog and that he appeared to be in good health, but appearences can be deceiving. Not only that, but a healthy pup doesn't always equal a healthy adult growing up. I to hope you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't have to shell out big bucks trying to undo what the BYBers did.

I have a small child so for me bringing home a full grown dog wasn't an option as it isn't for most people.

There are numorous "family" dogs that are great w/kids in shelters. My aunt recenlty adopted one for their family which includes a 6 year old and a 2 year old. Just because a dog has been dumped off (for lack of a better word) at a shelter doesn't mean that it's an ill tempered dog. I don't work for rescue's, but I do intend to volunteer as soon as I can get the means to do so. However, I do know that the rescue workers will try to suit your families needs. They will NOT adopt out an ill tempered dog known for being "rough" with kids to a family with young ones to consider.

 

[macca]

Hi thanks for all the comments. When she had her last vacc the I told the vet I was planning to breed from here and he gave me the all clear. I have talked to her breeders who live near me; McKenzies her parents are reg Maximillion our boy of the tree top and Amber star of penzance. The male is also reg Quest Ringleader and was breed in Blenihem (spelling??) Her breeders are happy with me comming to then for help as I need it. I have talked to vets and other people who have breed (at my agility classes). We have 10 acres so there is plenty of room for puppies.

I already have people I know and trust that want some of the puppies as well as my mother and as I work at a kennel and cattery I have access to a lot of resposiable pet owners.

A question I have is when should I stop excercising her (ie agility?) and when can I start again?

 

[Astoreen]

The vet gave you the all clear!?! Wonderful, I suppose. However, you haven't mentioned the health testing you've completed yet. A once over by the vet with his seal of approval is far from a certified, healthy, ready to be bred animal. So, what's the story?

 

[Eric J]

Another thing to keep in mind. When I was searching for a breeder I could trust, I heard the same thing from a few different breeders. The list of potential puppy owners is huge before you breed, but it dries up darn fast once it is go time.

 

[buddy's_mom_29]

Originally posted by mdowling
I have a small child so for me bringing home a full grown dog wasn't an option as it isn't for most people.

My foster Mercy (age 2-3 yrs.), who is in rescue because someone starved her half to death, let her get infested with heartworms, fleas, and ticks,and god knows what else they did to her, like most in rescue, (and oh yes, wanted her as a pup I'm sure ) just loves kids! As do many in rescues! So tell me, why was a full grown dog not an option??

 

[Jeanne]

It really saddens me to see people post that just breeding 2 boxers because the pet market wants them is okay. Too many times, those breedings are not thought out beyond the production of puppies and sale. Pedigrees, health issues, conformation are all ignored. Every vet will tell a client their pup/dog is a beautiful specimen, that doesn't mean the vet knows diddly about whether it is a *correct* speciman. That's one reason we show, and we have our dogs and their pedigrees evaulated by judges and older more experienced breeders. These puppy producers are also not going to spend which can amount to thousands of (US) dollars in testing fees. My boy has had tests so far that have cost me in the neighborhood of $900 and we aren't done yet. Add the costs to show him to CH, and we have a lot of time effort and money into assuring that this dog is breeding quality and will produce puppies a credit to the breed with a reasonable (as we can get it) expectation of long healthy lives. Too much effort and responsiblity for some? Yes, I guess so. As for the heartt ache of watching a beloved boxer pet die at a young age, I have encountered that all too often from people I have met over the years. That's a hard lesson to learn about resposible breeders, both in money and emotions. Watching your 6 year boxer die from heart problems and not being able to do a thing about it, even if you had all the money in the world, tears a person up.

 

[Sube Ru's mom]

Originally posted by macca
Hi thanks for all the comments. When she had her last vacc the I told the vet I was planning to breed from here and he gave me the all clear.

Just because a vet gave the all clear does not mean that the dog is up to the standards AND is healthy. The vet could give me the all clear to breed Subi but I KNOW i cant because she is not up to standards and has HD. The only way you can have an "all" clear to breed is if you do the health testing that is required.

Originally posted by macca
I have talked to her breeders who live near me; McKenzies her parents are reg Maximillion our boy of the tree top and Amber star of penzance. The male is also reg Quest Ringleader and was breed in Blenihem (spelling??) Her breeders are happy with me comming to then for help as I need it. I have talked to vets and other people who have breed (at my agility classes).

I am very happy that you are researching this and asking people for their help in breeding. Did the mother and father have the health testing done? Correct me if i am wrong, but just because your dog is "in show" does not mean that it is healthy. (i might be wrong on this) This is why health testing is vital.

Originally posted by macca
We have 10 acres so there is plenty of room for puppies.

I am glad that you have so much room, that is awesome.

Originally posted by macca

I already have people I know and trust that want some of the puppies as well as my mother and as I work at a kennel and cattery I have access to a lot of resposiable pet owners.

will you have a contract which states that if for some reason the new owners can not keep their dog that they will come back to you. Rescue hardly ever gets pups in, the reason; people want a puppy, it is when the dog gets older that it becomes a commodity.

A question I have is when should I stop excercising her (ie agility?) and when can I start again? [/B][/QUOTE]
i have no clue on this one.

You are doing a great job with all the research, the one thing i can not stress enough of though is- HEALTH TESTING