Best way to prevent Haley from reacting aggressively to alpha and aggressive dogs?

[tesster]

That is an "old school" training tool that almost all dog trainers have long since abandoned as an appropriate or effective training technique.

"World renowned ethologist and writer, Dr. Erich Klinghammer, Ph.D., director of Wolf Park, Indiana and President of North American Wildlife Federation, opines that:

'... the so-called alpha roll, over practiced by some, is nonsense. The context in which people do it with dogs does not coincide with the situation in which a wolf actively submits to a high-ranking wolf. We certainly do not use it with our hand-raised wolves. There is no way we can administer the intensity of a dominance attack on a wolf that they use with each other on very rare occasions. Establishing dominance is usually a drawn out series of encounters that eventually convinces a wolf to submit and run way a preferred strategy. If I were to go up to a hand-raised wolf that did not know me and attempt to dominate it physically, it would either run away or I would have one helluva fight on my hands - if the wolf could not get away. There is really a big difference between wolves and dogs. To simply extrapolate from wolves to dogs is at best problematical.'"

The alternative behavior is to teach the dog every day that you are the head of the pack. You can do this, among other ways, by using NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) training, whereby the dog must perform a command in order to get anything it wants. This very effectively puts you in the alpha position. By using NILF you teach the dog that it is beneficial to do what you say and she will therefore submit willingly.

The alpha roll, conversely, is like physically threatening your child into saying, "I love you." That's about the best explanation anyone ever gave me of it.

Bottom line, is it's ineffective at best and you'll likely find that any trainer who still promotes its use promotes a lot of other things that you should be wary of.

In the situation, the worst punishment that you can give Haley is to end her play.

 

[Mahoganyboy]

When I had to get Dempsey on his back the other day In his agility class, just to clarify, I did not force him. I got him in the down position and he went over on his back pretty much on his own, this was his way of submitting to me, and getting his attention. This is what my trainer told me to do. On the other hand, if you are strengling him to get him in that posission, I think that is a different story. I would like to know and alternative to this also if there is one. Dempsey just recently developed this behavior in class last week. He has always seemed to be very submissive towards other dogs and has been around a lot of them. In reading the book The Culture Clash, which is an awsome book I would recomend reading, I found out why he's like this in class... It's because they are on leashes. Dogs always have this compulsive need to get to know the other dog by rear-sniffing (familiar or unfamiliar, sex, reproductive status, ect.), greet, investigate in some detail and posture or initiate play. None of this can be done from a distance. This causes barrier frustration to the dogs when the owner is constantly pulling them away. When they finally get close enough their frustration comes out and they come accross too strong with eachother and ends in aggression. I thought this was very interesting because dempsey has never been agressive off leash.

 

[tesster]

When I had to get Dempsey on his back the other day In his agility class, just to clarify, I did not force him. I got him in the down position and he went over on his back pretty much on his own, this was his way of submitting to me, and getting his attention.

That's different than physically forcing your dog into a submissive position with the notion that this will teach him/her that you're the boss. Your dog is offering a submissive behavior. When you try to force your dog into a submissive position, in dog language, you're threatening to kill him/her. That is how they interpret it.

The Culture Clash is an excellent book. I guarantee you that Jean Donaldson does NOT promote the alpha roll. Keep reading.

 

[gefitlepez]

Thanks to everyone so far for their opinions on this matter. I am no expert and I was merely doing what I was assured was a valid technique. I can believe that those trainers were wrong, and I appreciate those of you that have taken time to explain why this is not a preferred techinque. HOWEVER, I have yet to see any posts offering a reasonable alternative.

It would be great if someone could offer this piece of information. It is easy to tell people what not to do, but it seems that offering constructive alernatives may prove to be more difficult. ANyone?

 

[sgbtab]

I have found that using the NILIF (nothing in life is free) that I have control of my dogs. at all times they look to me for leadership and by making them do tasks for anything they need or want. whether it's dinner time or we are outside playing or walking. with this type of tool they will want to do what you want. without harming the dogs. I am very calm when I am around my dogs. they feel the energy. here are some links to NILIF
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
http://www.sspca.org/Dogs_TANSTAAFL.html
this a way of life for my dogs not just a training tool.

 

[gefitlepez]

I recently was told the same thing about forcing them onto thier back but other than redirection didnt get any real alternatives for letting the pup know thats unwanted behavior.

But yesterday this link came up in another post I found it to be good info for Rude dogs when i was reading your post i thought of this

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

lots of good info and relates it to specific situations.

Ill definetly be keeping up with this thread im interested to see where this goes

p.s. I do understand the point that in dog language pinning on the back is a very agressive and potentially life threatening position fora dog but Ive also observed very submissive dogs presenting themsleves thisway to puncutuate thier submission Maybe this is where we all get that this is appropriate for showing OUR dominance im not saying its right but maybe where our actions are stemming from.

WOW! Thanks BXBSTFRIEND that was a fantastic article. It really helped put all this into perspective. Although I suspected much of what was written there it was helpful to see it laid out so succinctly.

 

[tesster]

If Haley is showing inappropriate behaviors at the park, you should give her a warning "No" and redirect with another activity that she enjoys (fetch, for example). If she continues to exhibit bad behavior after the warning, "Bad girl!" play ends. She will learn to associate the bad behavior with end of play and hopefully will knock it off.

 

[gefitlepez]

If Haley is showing inappropriate behaviors at the park, you should give her a warning "No" and redirect with another activity that she enjoys (fetch, for example). If she continues to exhibit bad behavior after the warning, "Bad girl!" play ends. She will learn to associate the bad behavior with end of play and hopefully will knock it off.

Great, I will definitely try that. Thanks!

 

[BXRBESTFRIND]

Ya the article really opened my eyes to understanding situations i see all the time.

Tesster when u say end the play do u mean have them in a sit stay or complete removal from the situation.

like If it needs to be done at the dog park do i have him lay next to me for a "breather" (which is what i do when he is just annoying a dog so he can calm down) Or play is over and donewith we leave the dog park??

I would luv to find a better alternative although the Alpha Roll, as i now understand it to be called, didnt happen often but was used in the most Extreme cases so he would know that the behavior was WAY out of hand.

THanx for the clarification that what makes this site so great everyones willing to provide alternatives to every training method of lack there of LOL

 

[yobdlog]

Selective - I say that my poochie is very selective and selective she is.

I live in a building with three other dog owners and all of our dogs by virtue of familiarity get along great and love to see and play with each other whether on our porches, outside on the lawn, or in the park.

When I'm in the park with my foxy boxer - she loves to play with children, adults (loves women), and a 'select' few other dogs. There are a few dogs she immediately recognizes and starts whining to play with them and then they do a mutual funfest of frollicking around with each other. There are then the 'others' that for some unknown reason to my wife and I have our dog's number yet they are off of the leash and playing with other dogs in the same park. Our girl is not combative at minds us very well, to the point of this 'disgusted' look our dog gives us when we tell her to stand down and ignore the yapping creant that their mindless owner lost sight of.

I could 'train' my poochie to get along and fend nicely with all dogs in this city - or I could relish in her uniqueness to like and dislike dogs at her liesure.

Personally - I don't like everyone either - and my dog perhaps has that similar trait. I've long forgotten the imbeciles that keep telling me 'you need to train your dog to play nicely'. No I don't. I don't have an obligation to make my dog play nice - in fact - since I am in usual control over my poochie - as far as I'm concerned if your poochie wants to have a melee of sorts - my foot up your dog's butt would be the same reaction. My dog plays wonderfully nice and with aplomb with all her poochie girlfriends and boyfriends who chase her up and down the fields and they roll over each other like children in a sandlot - because my dog doesn't like "YOUR" dog is a very personal thing indeed - and her exclusivity is praised - for being my dog, her own personality, and that she means no harm if guided away from your snarling creature.

Relish in our dogs uniqueness - there is a difference between dog going nutso and being beligerent - and quite another thing when all they don't care about is meeting your dog out of the multitude.