Best way to prevent Haley from reacting aggressively to alpha and aggressive dogs?

[gefitlepez]

So, Haley went through a period during her adolescent years (1 1/2 to 2 1/2) when she was being very alpha and aggressive towards other dogs, especially on leash. This has mellowed significantly in recent months and I can take her to the dog park off leash regularly without fear of her getting into scuffles. However, one issue still remains and it has been very frustrating. In the last week she has gotten into 3 scuffles with other dogs. I say scuffle and not fight b/c she never actually bites other dogs, but she makes a lot of growling noises, bears her teeth, snaps and tries to knock the other dog to the ground. She could easily bite the other dog before I get there to break it up, but she never does. Anyway, the issue is that she never simply attacks other dogs, but she reacts very poorly to other dogs being aggressive towards her. I'll give a short synopsis of the 3 incidents this week:

#1 - Chihuahua. Haley tries severaltimes to meet the dog. She walks over, sniffs the dog's butt, hangs out for a sec then walks away. Every time she goes over to the dog it bears its teeth, growls and jumps at her face. Haley actually did a great job of not reacting the first few times. After the third time this happens I shoo Haley away. Then when I not looking for a second Haley walks over there and the Chihuahua jumps and tries to bite Haley. Haley decides she has had enough and tackles the little fellow, does not bite it, but makes a big scene and of couse everyone looks at me like I am allowing my big mean boxer to kill this adorable little chihuahua when it was completely the little dog's fault. At least the owner apologized to me and took the blame.

#2 - Jack Russel Terrier - exact same scenario except the Jack Russel had a ball he was chasing. AS soon Haley got near him, he leaps at her and tries to bite her face. Again Haley decides she is not gonna take this crap. Fracas ensues. Again, here the other owner apologized and took the blame.

#3 - Doberman. Today Haley was playing with a Doberman. They did great for the first ten minutes. Then they started wrestling. OK for a minute. The it turns out that both dogs are alpha. Not sure who started it, but someone decided not to back down and within about 10 seconds, what was play turns into a scuffle. Again, no blood drawn, but lots of noise and all the other dog owners took off. The owner of the Doberman asked me if I knew who started it, and I said I wasn't sure but it is clear that both dogs are alpha. She agrees. Both of us apologized to each other.

In the end, I am happy that Haley isn't just preemptively attacking other dogs, but there are always going to be other aggressive/alpha dogs and I can't have Haley reacting this way to every dog that tries to challenge her. It is very frustrating obviously, b/c I know Haley wants to be good. I have been working with her at the park a lot and she has improved by leaps and bounds. Her recall is outstanding compared to how it used to be. I can call her over and make her sit next to me. She will sit until I say it is ok play again. SHe has also improved her leash aggression significantly.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to fix her reactionay nature? I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[sgbtab]

well I think with question number 1 and 2 the other dogs had bad manners and she was telling them to behave.

with question number 3 I have a different opinion. first let me say that you are the alpha not the dog or dogs. take control and don't allow that behavior. if she gets like this then you need to put her in a sit postion. or just take her away from that play.

 

[Net45582]

there are so many variables involved when dogs don't get along....sexes,situations,toys,foods,fear.....it's up to you to maintain control and watch out for the little signs before things escalate into a scene. Dogs are going to be dogs,when their behavior isn't acceptable you need to redirect their attention....I'm afraid there is no one answer to your question.

 

[gefitlepez]

well I think with question number 1 and 2 the other dogs had bad manners and she was telling them to behave.

with question number 3 I have a different opinion. first let me say that you are the alpha not the dog or dogs. take control and don't allow that behavior. if she gets like this then you need to put her in a sit postion. or just take her away from that play.

I fully understand the notion that redirection is important and I actually feel like I do a very good job of it. It's just that even when you do see the telltale signs, it's not possible to intercede quickly enough 100% of the time. Just to be clear, this is not a behavior I am just ignoring and letting het get away with. When something unfortunate does happen I always grab her and flip her over onto her back and hold her down and say NO! Also, I often call her over to me and make her sit if I see her posturing or obsessing on one dog.

The thing is, while I understand what you are trying to say about the owner being alpha and not the dog, I have a hard time buying into the underlying premise. Dogs have personalities just like people. Some people are naturally more alpha than others. In pop psychology it is called an "A-type" personality. I just don't buy the notion that dogs don't vary in this respect because they do. Fact is, I can do all the redirection and monitoring in the world, but it doesn't change the fact that she has a dominant personality. There are plenty of dogs out there that don't react aggressively in this type of situation. Is there a way I can make my dog one of them?

I definitely appreciate your advice, I understand your point, and I fully intend to continue working with her, monitoring her body language and trying to let her know when she is behaving in unnacceptable ways. However my question is really if there is another way to specifically address her reacting to other aggressive dogs or do I simply have to keep doing what I am doing and hope it improves?

 

[JefChel]

We try to redirect their attention too

When we take Soze and Jedi around other dogs, they loose all train of thought, so we try to get them to focus on something else if we think there's going to be a problem. Jedi hasn't gotten to that domineering stage yet, but Soze will not tolerate another dog growling at her in any way, shape, or form. We really have to be careful around little dogs, which is strange because she is so gentle with kittens - even if they hiss. Soze and Jedi both tend to get along better with males, I guess because there's less competition. Ha Ha.

 

[tesster]

Redirection is definitely the way to go from a management perspective, but you need to be very saavy on the initial warning signs that Haley is getting "fussy" with another dog in order to prevent this kind of behavior. You also, however, don't want to punish appropriate signals that Haley is giving the other dogs. So, make sure that whatever you use for redirection is very rewarding.

I would suggest talking to a behaviorist or enrolling in a class for "grumpy pups" that deals with dog-dog aggression. The thing is, that whether or not Haley starts it, this is aggression and it will not resolve itself.

I can say that with confidence because Haley sounds an awful lot like my Tess when her issues first started emerging. It started out with a very low tolerance for rude dogs (typically small dogs because they are really the only ones who get away with aggressive behaviors at dog parks) and has progressed to the point that we no longer feel comfortable taking her to dog parks. Tess was very well socialized and it was like things just changed at about 2 yrs old. She just became very intolerant.

We're starting a Grumpy Pups class tomorrow night with Tess. It's designed for dogs like Tess who have issues with dog-dog aggression. As much as I wanted to deny it, that is the issue. You can find the exact class we're taking if you perform a google search using the words "Grumpy Pups San Francisco." We're down on the peninsula, as is our class, but I think she has something in S.SF. It might be worth checking into.

Good luck, at any rate!

Julie

 

[courtney323]

When something unfortunate does happen I always grab her and flip her over onto her back and hold her down and say NO!

Do me a favor and never ever ever do that again. Not only does it not teach your dog anything, it's a great way to get yourself bitten (and for good reason). That is an extremely aggressive gesture that would never be implemented by an "alpha" dog. As GMacleod so eloquently put it in a recent thread, "The only time a higher ranking dog would force another onto it's back like that is if it were intending to kill or severely injure the other. Can you imagine what you're doing to her psyche when you force her into that position?" (http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92623)

I will also note (from the Rules):

we support and promote wholeheartedly positive training and behaviour management, that is, teaching the dog what to do by using positive methods, not teaching a dog what not to do by causing it discomfort and pain. Any threads which appear to promote "negative" training and methods will be closed.

www.boxerworld.com/rules

 

[gefitlepez]

Do me a favor and never ever ever do that again. Not only does it not teach your dog anything, it's a great way to get yourself bitten (and for good reason). That is an extremely aggressive gesture that would never be implemented by an "alpha" dog. As GMacleod so eloquently put it in a recent thread, "The only time a higher ranking dog would force another onto it's back like that is if it were intending to kill or severely injure the other. Can you imagine what you're doing to her psyche when you force her into that position?" (http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92623)

I will also note (from the Rules):



www.boxerworld.com/rules

That's interesting because I have been told by more than one trainer that that is an appropriate way to deal with this type of thing; that dominating the dog in that manner is one method of asserting your superior pack position. Also, you failed to mention the alternative. So, what is a better way to assert dominance?

As far as the rules go, I fail to see how this is promoting pain or discomfort. I don't think that rule is applicable to this situation. It may not be the preferrable technique, but it is certainly not promoting pain or discomfort. I am not rough with her, I simply hold her down for a moment. I think maybe you are misperceiving what I said. At any rate, thanks for the heads up about that technique, and as I said, it would great if you could recommend a better alternative. Thanks

 

[Mahoganyboy]

Do me a favor and never ever ever do that again. Not only does it not teach your dog anything, it's a great way to get yourself bitten (and for good reason). That is an extremely aggressive gesture that would never be implemented by an "alpha" dog. As GMacleod so eloquently put it in a recent thread, "The only time a higher ranking dog would force another onto it's back like that is if it were intending to kill or severely injure the other. Can you imagine what you're doing to her psyche when you force her into that position?" (http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92623)

I will also note (from the Rules):



www.boxerworld.com/rules

I just have to say, I think you are very wrong also about this causing the dog discomfort or pain. I have been told to do the same thing by my trainer, and in no way was there any pain or discomfort.

 

[BXRBESTFRIND]

I recently was told the same thing about forcing them onto thier back but other than redirection didnt get any real alternatives for letting the pup know thats unwanted behavior.

But yesterday this link came up in another post I found it to be good info for Rude dogs when i was reading your post i thought of this

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

lots of good info and relates it to specific situations.

Ill definetly be keeping up with this thread im interested to see where this goes

p.s. I do understand the point that in dog language pinning on the back is a very agressive and potentially life threatening position fora dog but Ive also observed very submissive dogs presenting themsleves thisway to puncutuate thier submission Maybe this is where we all get that this is appropriate for showing OUR dominance im not saying its right but maybe where our actions are stemming from.