Anyone considering breeding please read

Status
Not open for further replies.

adeinert

Boxer Insane
Re: Disagree with alot of the article....

Originally posted by jakester
Sorry to buck the trend but I disagree with much of what the article stated. First off, I don't care for the general widescoped label 'Backyard Breeders'.

It just bothers me that people have this preconceived idea that if you bought your boxer from a local person via the newspaper, you've bought a BAD dog from a 'BYB'. The article then eludes to the fact that many dogs bought from BYB's are turned into shelters and left without food,etc...etc.. You explain to me how the propensity of this happening to buying a dog from someone locally to some notable breeder changes the likelihood of someone keeping the dog? In case you didn't realize it, boxers that are sold by BYB's arn't exactly free. Most people that plan on spending over $500 for an animal have every intention on keeping that dog for a lifetime and plan on doing whatever it takes to make a loving pet for years to come.

However my current boxer (Jake) that was bought from a local person in my area is much closer to the boxer standard. I can't take him anywhere without getting mobbed with compliments about how gorgeous he is. After seeing him, I fell in love and knew he had the BOXER look


Dogs purchased through newspapers are not quality. They aren't "bad" dogs, just poor quality. It is just further supporting the ignorant people filling our shelters with homeless dogs headed for euthanasia. Sure, some look like a boxer but do not have the bloodlines and health to reproduce that. Everything in those articles reflect what I see day in and day out as a rescuer. Almost 400 "purebred" boxers came through our rescue in the year 2003 alone. I see A LOT of byb boxers. Many of our boxers are from BYB's. I haven't met a byb yet that will take back a dog or keep in touch with each dog to follow it's health history. Professional breeders keep in touch with each dog and keep track of each offspring's health. I recall an incident of a boxer coming into rescue with a jaw-dropping pedigree. We called the breeders across the country who were stunned that they had the wool pulled over their eyes- a rarity, and immediately wanted to know how to get the boxer back. As fate had it, a rescue volunteer who loves the sport of dog showing took him in as her love and pet. She is close with the breeders like most owners of well bred dogs. If we would call these byb's we would get a "click" or an apathetic comment. Many boxers besides those 400 were adopted out from shelters this year, I can tell you that the BYBreeders didn't come down to the shelter to pick up the dog, their responsibility ends when the cash hits their hands. And truly $500 is nothing to spend. We have many byb boxers turned in under a year, very shortly after the $500 was spent on the dog. BYB's thrive on people who view dogs as possessions and therefore the dogs become disposable.

I could tell hundreds of tales of experiences with these byb's through rescue and they are exactly how the article depicts them. But more importantly, I spend every free moment rescuing the boxers they are overbreeding and not looking out for. I see these backyard breeders as a curse on the breed from a rescuer's standpoint.

And as for the beauty of a dog to the public, I have owned rescue dogs that stop traffic every day and receive the repeated comments on if I will breed him to theirs, save a puppy, do I show, etc. All that tells me is that most people are ignorant of what it takes to produce quality offspring. Just because my last boxer had "perfect" markings (you don't breed for markings) and was put together really well doesn't mean he would produce puppies that looked like him or that were healthy. It is truly a joy to own a stunning boxer. It is a greater honor to know better than to breed that dog just because it turns heads.

So these articles truly reflect real life here in the "trenches" of boxer rescue. When I read articles given titles such as: How to tell if you're a backyard breeder, they all ring true of the mom and pop breeders trying to make excuses for breeding dogs that have no business being bred. When I read these articles it seems as plain as day because I see it all the time. I have talked to byb's when they call to turn in dogs. It is amazing just how little they know about breeding and the boxer breed. Most honestly think if you take two dogs with akc papers or two boxers who look pretty you'll get a good litter. This kills me! I'd die laughing if it wasn't so pathetically sad. Another common strain with them is: the bigger the better. And let's face it, have you ever seen a boxer pup that wasn't cute? Even the pet shop boxers are cute and our local pet shop is known for little flashy fawn pups that are so cute and grow up to have these long muzzles which could be classified as mixes to some.

I wish everyone came down into the "trenches" of boxer rescue and shelters for a bit and could see the truth plain as day. Thankfully, someone took the time to share some of the facts in those articles. So, rescuers also want the breeding to be left up to the professionals who know how to pick matings and health testing. From breeders I know who health test and produce quality boxers the prices don't differ too much from byb's and sometimes less than pet stores. What does differ is that the professional breeders are pouring in money, heart, and soul to better the breed. They can give health guarantees of up to five years because they know what they are breeding. Puppy shops and byb's really don't put anything into the pups. And try calling them with health concerns.

From what I have read, there are countries that limit the dogs bred. I can only imagine that they don't have almost 400 dogs coming into rescue in one state or boxers dying at such young ages from genetic diseases.

Breeding is more than mating. A quality dog is more than just pretty.

Ashlie
owned by three beautiful, rescued boxers all spayed and neutered
www.flbr.org
 
Last edited:

SammynDqtz

Boxer Insane
Re: Disagree with alot of the article....

Originally posted by jakester






You explain to me how the propensity of this happening to buying a dog from someone locally to some notable breeder changes the likelihood of someone keeping the dog? In case you didn't realize it, boxers that are sold by BYB's arn't exactly free. Most people that plan on spending over $500 for an animal have every intention on keeping that dog for a lifetime and plan on doing whatever it takes to make a loving pet for years to come.

Also please explain to me how respected breeders insure 100% that their puppies go to a good home? Do they come out for a survey or is it the typical face to face interview? How can this article imply that puppies sold from BYB's or breeders are more likely to be backyard, stay outside all night dogs? How can they determine any unfavorable choice of action to come from pet ownership??



getting mobbed with compliments about how gorgeous he is. After seeing him, I fell in love and knew he had the BOXER look that I so dearly love although he didn't come from a reputable breeder.

Jake has absolute perfect markings and I like to think he might have been show ring quality if I had pursued that avenue.

nobody has the right to say, you can't breed the dog, even if you have an AKC registered dog.

if you understand the standard of your breed, you should be allowed to responsibly breed your animal without being considered a BACKYARD BREEDER
Responsible breeders screen prospective owners, they should ask everything from A to Z. They may even do a home check and ask for a vet reference. They should want to spend time getting to know you and see how you interact with their dogs. Some (esp. for show pups) require a co-ownership. And if anything comes up at any time... the responsible breeder takes the dog back.

It's not about just a pretty face and AKC papers. Having AKC papers does not speak of the quality of the dog. They might be nice to have and are required for showing in an AKC conformation event but don't mean quality. A good breeder chooses dogs that conform to the standard, have wonderful temperments and have been health tested and cleared... that means not just a little check up. It's not about only understanding the breed standard.

BYB's are those that don't care about the health, conformation or temperment of the breed and are most often motivated by cash.
:( :mad:

very well said Ahlie... you covered many good points.
 

harley03

Completely Boxer Crazy
appicon
Ashlie that was perfect.
I hope that somehow people will open their eyes (and brains) someday and look around.
Why isn't their some sort of license or something required for those who are really serious about breeding????
Why will clubs like the AKC allow all this unethical breeding to take place (they are giving their stamp of approval to those newborn pups even if they are not quality animals)???
And will there ever be an end to BYB and puppymillers???
 

jakester

Boxer Buddy
Well I'm quite taken back by the notion that dogs from the newspaper arn't QUALITY. I totally understand with where you are coming from 'the trenches' but my point is, prove to me that genetically speaking you have a better dog than I do.

If that was the case, why is it that millions of people think that mongrels make the best dogs?

Maybe people are trying to over complicate nature and breed what is suppposedly a PERFECT dog. Maybe I'm ignorant but I didn't realize that all respectable breeders had in depth analysis of the dogs inner vitales, blood, bone marrow studies before deciding it was a breedable dog. If that's the case, I apologize.

Again, when it comes to showing a dog, a neccessary evil in receiving 'champion' tag, a good looking dog along with many other attributes is needed. So you can't tell me that outer appearance (markings, height, to name a few) isn't a major factor in deciding which dogs are apt for breeding.

I live in the Tampa Florida area and the Tampa Tribune always has 3 - 6 litters of Boxers for sale. Are all of these litters quality? Probably not but I'm sure quite a few will make wonderful pets for years to come. In regards to my purchase of Jake, I was told from the owners that at any time something went wrong and you realized you were in over your head, they would grant a full refund. We keep in contact all the time via email and share pics of Jake's growth. For the record, I spent quite a bit more than $500 for Jake.

I don't wish to take the advesarial role here but I'm tired of thinking that if you bought your dog from someone other than a DESIRED BREEDER, you got a NON-QUALITY dog. I have numerous stories to tell from people that have bought from reputable breeders and experienced health/ temperment problems down the road as well.

Nothing is fool proof. Nothing is 100%.

I do believe strongly that BYB's play a vital role in the detriment of a strong breed as well the popularity at the time. Enough bad breeding can lead to a different looking dog in due time such as plenty of boxers with long muzzles like my last one.

I venture to say at least 50% of the boxer owners of this site have bought from other sources than a reputable breeder. ie... newspaper, rescue, adoption, pet store.

I wish for everyone to stand true to their ideas and notions regarding the topic at hand but don't dimiss the idea that Boxers bought from the newspaper are any less of quality from breeders.
 

harley03

Completely Boxer Crazy
Well I can tell you one thing...
My beautiful boxer boy Harley is from a less than reputable breeder. He is a typical boxer in every way. He is healthy, beautiful fawn coat, typical classic black mask, typical boxer size, great temperment. I love him with all my heart. But I bought him (for a cheep price...$600 canadian) because I was very uneducated and didn't know that backyard breeding was "such a big deal".
I have since changed my outlook on backyard breeders durastically.
Soon after taking Harley home I heard of other boxer pups (very possibly his siblings) who were being kept outside on chains (not allowed in thier homes), one female (harley's sister) was sold to a couple who later decided that they would rather have a rottie, so they got rid of her (don't know how, don't care to know).
Harley's mother was only 2 I believe and had already had 2 litters (Harley's included), thankfully she had to be spayed due to complications during the 2nd litter. Harley's father was 8 years old (both parents were beautiful dogs). She had not done any health testing (except for checkups) so we have no idea if Harley's genetics holds any suprises for us.
Harley was neutered at 5-6 months, it hasn't changed him one bit. He is his same boxer self and surgery didn't slow him down for a minute. He is our PET and will be loved till the day he dies no matter what.
We are planning another addition to our fur family in the future, but this time will be different (we've already been taking to several reputable breeders who know all the ins and outs of the breed).
Those people will be our mentors, and help us with any questions we may encounter.
You are lucky that the BYB you got your pup from will take responsibility for him if you decide you can not. Many Many BYB's will not.
If you are interested in breeding and want to take it seriously do the health testing and be sure that they meet the standard (ie. through conformation which is judged by professionals).
 

Boxer_21

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by jakester
Well I'm quite taken back by the notion that dogs from the newspaper arn't QUALITY.
The reason why purchasing puppies from a newspaper ad isn't recommended is because reputable breeders (who ARE breeding to better the breed) don't need to "advertise" when they have a litter of puppies for sale. They get all the advertising that they need by producing TOP QUALITY dogs and by showing them. By top quality, I mean that they have a line of dogs which has gone through numerous health tests and have a great temperament.

Granted, newpaper ad puppies may also have a great temperament for life, but how do you know that hip displaysia and other genetic faults (including heart problems) aren't in their blood lines?? By health testing (which reputable breeders do), you can't rule it out completely, but it dramatically decreases the chances of this occuring. This is what is meant by bettering the breed. Continuously breeding only the healthiest and best temperamented dogs.

You should also note that the boxer is a man made breed so preserving certain physical features, such as the head/muzzle, is very important. Backyard breeders often don't take this into consideration and the outcome is a litter of boxers who physically do not meet the standard (often times they have longer muzzels). This is yet another reason why boxers are shown and judged.

I totally understand with where you are coming from 'the trenches' but my point is, prove to me that genetically speaking you have a better dog than I do.
In a lot of cases this would be very easy and very possible to prove. Health testing in a line will prevent many defects that a non health tested line would. Heart problems can be passed down from generation to generation. Health testing would reduce the risk dramatically!!

I venture to say at least 50% of the boxer owners of this site have bought from other sources than a reputable breeder. ie... newspaper, rescue, adoption, pet store.
And a lot of these people were uneducated before making that decision. Once they've learned, they realize that what's done is done, but they also vow to never make that same mistake again.

I wish for everyone to stand true to their ideas and notions regarding the topic at hand but don't dimiss the idea that Boxers bought from the newspaper are any less of quality from breeders.
You go on and thinking whatever you want to think. If you dig a little deeper and take in some of the facts, you may come up with a different attitude and opinion about this.

- Mandy
 

jakester

Boxer Buddy
Well after further thinking, I will probably buy my dog from a reputable breeder that has a good reputation. I didn't realize so much was done to keep the breed intact. I thought the article was another attempt at a breeder protecting her livelihood.

You are correct in saying that it doesn't ensure 100% freedom of problems but it dramatically reduces the likelihood.

I just hope Jake sticks around for years to come. We would be heartbroken if something happens to our little guy.....

People ask me constantly "are you going to breed him" My answer is always NO. I'm not prepared to deal with his changed behavior after he acquires a taste for the female variety.
So he will be getting snipped in another 2 months......

I just hope he stays healthy for a long long time...and you are right, this website educates, informs, and provides and endless source of information on caring for our loved pets.

My next boxer will be from a reputable breeder........we might get a buddy for Jake in the spring......a little girl
 

harley03

Completely Boxer Crazy
appicon
Way to go jakester.
I'm so happy you changed your toon...and so quickly too.
It really doesn't take long to find the facts with a little research.
I think Jakey will be a very happy, healthy baby, who will appreciate a little sister to play with.
 

SammynDqtz

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by jakester
Well after further thinking, I will probably buy my dog from a reputable breeder that has a good reputation. I didn't realize so much was done to keep the breed intact. I thought the article was another attempt at a breeder protecting her livelihood.


Glad you did a little reasearch. :) Yes, this place has a ton of info! :cool:
BTW, if that article was by a reputable breeder... breeding dogs shouldn't be his/her livelihood... it should be a hobby.;)

P.S... I'm sure your boxer boy would be thrilled to have a little sister! :D Hope your search for a new puppy goes well. :)
 

adeinert

Boxer Insane
Jakester,
appicon
It's a lot to take in! Most of America truly believes that buying a pup out of the paper from nice folks is okay.

My first rescue was the light and love of my life. Besides being stunningly handsome, he was the most amazing dog I have ever met. I lost him to cancer of the lungs and bones at six years of age. Six is a very young age to loose a best friend, one I had only met eighteen months earlier. A close friend has a boxer health guaranteed through age five from a reputable breeder. His sister is a top show boxer in Florida and his parents and relatives have all had nice, full lives. I felt robbed loosing my precious boxer so young and feel that if more breeders health tested, it would give our babies fuller lives. If I were to buy a puppy, I would definitely go this route, doing whatever I can to ensure a healthy pup. Florida Boxer Rescue has listed breeders in the state that have made it known that they health test. Boxerworld also has a page.

Jagger was most likely a byb stud. To the untrained eye, he was absolutely wonderful but by no means was breeding quality. He changed my life. But every day I will fight against backyard breeders because I see so many sick and mistreated boxers that are accidents coming from Florida's backyard breeders.

Hope to chat more, my fellow Floridian.
Ashlie
owned by the rescued boxertrio:
Desi Dreamboat - 4 yr., flashy reverse brindle
Tulley - 20 month, fawn
and
Jillian (turned three today!), fawn female
partyicon
www.flbr.org
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top