whole prey model?

[ilovevegas]

Hi guys!
I recently joined a rawfeeding yahoo group and they all feed the "whole prey model" diet(as per Tom Lonsdale). They seem to be pretty anti "Barf"(Ian Billinghurst), and they're not into supplements and veggies etc. They think that dogs should not need those if they are getting a proper diet (whole animal carcasses, like how wolves eat naturally) Oh and they only feed around 15% bone, the rest is meat and offal....I guess I'm just wondering if any of you feed this way..I've started to model Vegas' diet more like this..makes sense to me..just curious wat the rest of you think???
Crystal
http://www.montrealboxerrescue.com
http://www.boxerrescuecanada.org

 

[BooBoo & Riley]

I guess I don't disagree... but why are they against veggies and supplements?

I feed both of mine chicken carcasses whole... then a bit of veggies with offal and ground meats... I guess my style is not to different than them...

 

[jaimie]

Ok, I disagree... In the wild, dogs did eat veggie matter-in the stomach of the animals they eat. So, in essence that diet you are explaining isn't complete.

Giving no veggies leaves out the other essential nutrients needed for digestion, fiber, omega 3 fatty acids, etc. What about calcium? That is one main thing dogs get from the bone. That is an absolute must have!

I think if you were going to do the whole prey thing then let them have the whole thing, including the stomach. Yucky! That way that would be the "complete diet".

Just MHO

 

[gmacleod]

Ok, I disagree... In the wild, dogs did eat veggie matter-in the stomach of the animals they eat. So, in essence that diet you are explaining isn't complete.

Yes, it is That model is *precisely* what dogs would eat in the wild - namely the whole carcasses of small animals, stomach contents included. That is why it is felt that there is no need to 'supplement' with extra veges, etc

Lonsdale isn't against veges per se, he just feels that dogs actually ate a lot less vege matter than some other people do. Observations of wild dogs show that the stomach contents and weight bearing bones of animals are what is most often *discarded*. Conclusion: dogs do need some degree of vege matter, but it is minimal. Whole carcasses also contain bone...

One thing worth noting though. Whole wild carcasses (bunnies, for example) are usually a LOT leaner (meaning less meat as well as less fat) than domestically raised ones. For that reason it is worth thinking about the meat:bone ratios.

 

[jaimie]

I don't disagree on the whole prey model, but how I understood reading ILoveVegas's post is that they aren't feeding the whole carcass. BUT they are modifying the diet, like instead of giving the dog a whole carcass they are just feeding minimal bones, mostly meat and organs, with no veggies included.
I do agree though feeding a whole carcass-NOT limiting what parts/insides the animal eats is complete.
I just needed to clarify am I reading this post wrong or am I correct in saying they don't give the animal the carcass per se but they give them some bones, mostly meat & organs?

Thanks!

 

[ilovevegas]

They think that dogs should not need those if they are getting a proper diet (whole animal carcasses, like how wolves eat naturally)

No, from what I understand, Jaimie, the point of this diet is that they are not modifying it at all. Therefore no supplements, no extra veggies. They feed their dogs whole carcasses ideally or make up "frankein-carcasses" from different parts to simulate a whole animal. The say that if the dog is getting the whole prey, then they are getting all the vitamins and nutrients that they need. The veggies that their dogs get are the reminents in the stomach of the prey and this is often shaken out of the stomach first or completely discarded. I don't think that they intentionally feed lees bone, it's just that when their dog is offered the whole carcass, he eats less bone...? I'm only just learning about all this so bear with me! If anyone is interested I can give the name of the group so you can ask them questions...I find it all really interesting..
Crystal
http://www.montrealboxerrescue.com
http://www.boxerrescuecanada.org

 

[FarleyBoxer]

Where does one get an entire animal carcass? I don't know if I could stomach it (no pun intended). I don't mean to be flippant, I just have enough trouble with the nicely packaged chicken parts...I'm not a big meat person!

How often does this model feed? I mean, an entire chicken is likely more than Farley needs in one day.

 

[ilovevegas]

I just have enough trouble with the nicely packaged chicken parts...I'm not a big meat person!

Haha! I'm a vegetarian! The things we do for our dogs, right!?
They get their meat from butchers or suppliers. They don't necessarily feed the whole chicken, cow, pig, for one meal, depending on the type and size of dog they have. Some will feed a whole chicken but that's the meal for the day (at least) They call it gorging and fasting(because wolves in the wild do not eat everyday). Some cut it up into pieces and feed it over a few meals. Their motto is "know your dog" cuz you adapt the diet to suit your dogs needs...anyhoo like I said, I'm still learning! They could probably answer you much better than me!

 

[gmacleod]

I have no particular problem with either the Billinghurst-style BARF or the whole prey models. probably because what I feed is somewhere in between the two anyway LOL.

Last time I read Tom Lonsdale's book though, I didn't notice anything 'anti-vege' in it - I'd just say that his view and Billinghurst's differ slightly on how much vege matter is optimal, with Billinghurst advocating slightly more than Lonsdale. No big deal - neither diet needs to be prescriptive. Dr Lonsdale isn't exactly what I'd call a whole-prey advocate either. Yes, he bases his assessment of what dogs should eat around what they would probably have been able to hunt, but he does put that in the context of what you're able to buy at the supermarket or butcher. He also suggests including your left-over meat, veges and off-cuts

 

[JulieM]

Lonsdale is not anti-veggie, but the group ilovevegas mentioned most certainly is. "Know your dog" is a good motto, but I didn't see much tolerance there for people who know their dogs need some vegetables.

Actually, with Billinghurst's newest book, he and Lonsdale are close to being on the same page on veggies - Billinghurst recommends about 25% of the diet as veggies, Lonsdale recommends no more than that.

Wolves do not eat the stomach content of the larger prey like deer or moose; they do eat the stomach content of the smaller prey like rabbits, voles, mice, etc. (Can you imagine a wolf picking apart a mouse to get rid of the stomach?) I believe they do eat the intestinal content of everything (or, at any rate, I've not seen that disputed and when I've asked about it directly, I was answered with silence.) So to say that they do not get any vegetable matter at all is entirely false. To say that vegetables do not make up a significant part of the diet is certainly a fair statement, IMO.

As far as supplements go - I agree that wolves certainly do not hit the health food store to pick up some vitamin C. However, I also think we need to consider the different origins of wolf prey vs. what we feed our dogs. Most of us do not feed free-range, organic, basically wild until they are slaughtered animals. We feed animals raised specifically for food, given processed feeds and limited exercise. It is my personal belief that this makes a difference in the nutrient content of the meat, and so I supplement to try to make up for that difference. Not a lot, and not as often as I probably should, but I don't for one second kid myself that the chicken I buy my dogs from the grocery store is the same thing as the pheasant a wolf would eat in the wild. (Not even considering the lack of feathers!)