White puppies put down?

[TheOriginalP]

Did I sound angry? I hope not. I am puzzled and disturbed by this more than anything. I am mostly interested in finding out some facts.

I emailed with this breeder and asked her to explain her reasons. She responded with her reasons, but in my opinion they were not good ones and I was not convinced.

Having researched the breed and whites in particular, I am definitely considering getting a white one. Am also looking at adopting one but in Canada (especially out west here) there doesn't seem to be very many that need homes. That's great for the dogs, but I am still searching!

 

[TheOriginalP]

... and yes, I did let her know why, as beautiful as her dogs are, I was no longer considering one of her babies.

 

[meyersboxer]

i placed all my whites

my chaney girl had 8 puppies in march. she had 5 pure white ones and 3 brindles. i found good homes for the white ones before i did the bridles. the people who took home the white ones were so exited. and not to mention there are so many creative names that they came up with for there pups. the a.k.c. papers did not matter to them. they wanted it to love not to show.

 

[Marimat]

Hello Board and especially TheOriginalP,

I'm pleased to see that you are taking the responsibilty of becoming a boxerphile so seriously, it's refreshing to have someone doing the research before buying for a change.

However, you are not quite "on the money" with some of what you have found out.

TheOriginalP wrote...

I've read that culling originated from when boxers were bred as guard dogs. White dogs do not camouflage well in the dark and guard dogs make lousy pets. However, boxers are no longer guard dog material and pets have little reason to camouflage themselves (except when they chew up your favorite shoes).

This is close to the truth but not quite. In Wartime Germany, (WW1), there were great food shortages. Dog breeders at this time could not afford to feed themselves, much less their dogs so many dogs of all breeds went by the wayside. Fortunately for the Boxer there were people like Phillip and Friedurun Stockmann (The mother of Boxers) who found a way around the food shortage by training their dogs to be used in service thus being granted food supplies by the army to fed the dogs. Phillip took all his best dogs into service with him. However, as one of the main duties of the boxer in Wartime Germany was as a sentry dog at night it was condsidered unacceptable to have a white dog as they were too easily seen by snipers etc. As people at the time had enough trouble feeding their best breeding stock and as white was already by now unacceptable in the standard, culling of whites came to the fore. There was never any great prejudice against the white boxer before this other than them being unacceptable to the standard. In fact some of the most important dogs in the boxer history were in fact white, including Meta v.d. Passage who is behind every modern boxer. Meta was a "check" but none the less predominantly white. Her mother Blanka v. Angertor was all white and she is numbered 4 in the original German stud book.

The other reason, historically, that whites became excluded was because the original genes for white in the boxer came from it's earliest development when dogs like Dr Toeniessen's bulldog were used for certain characteristics. It was found that the continued usage of whites in breeding programs became retrograde as the dogs that bore most white or were all white were reverting back to bulldog type and were not what the boxer breeds pioneers were trying to achieve.

Now from the point of view of TheOriginalP I don't suppose any of this would have much bearing on their current stand. But this is useful information from an historic view, it shows that culling did not just start as a whimsy. All this and more can be read in John P Wagners - The Boxer. Out of print now, but there are some copies available at the Barnes and Noble website or in the absolute bible for boxer people - My Life With Boxers by Frau Friedurun Stockmann which can be purchased online at the Boxer Gallery on this site.

How the deafness factor came into culling is anyones guess really. I have my own theory on how it came to be, I'll tell it later if anyone is interested but for now it's irrelevant. However, deafness IS a fact of life in boxers.

You wanted hard figures, I have some. If you were to contact Boxer rescue in Dallas Texas you would find out that of thirty out of seventy-five white Boxers (40%) that came through their rescue program over a two-year period were deaf, and that rescue program in Virginia and Maryland recently reported that six out of twenty white Boxers (30%) in their program were deaf.

That's a very high percentage and as with all figures is likely to be pretty much across the board.

So whoever first stumbled on it and decided to cull doesn't matter, that's why my theory would be irrelevant at this time, but deafness is a fact of life in boxers.

Reference: http://www.cinemaboxers.com/whites.htm

So remaining philosophical and trying to be unemotive one would have to wonder if culling is a bad thing or not really. I mean the thing is this. The available figures are on boxers in shelters. Would these deaf white boxers be in shelters at all if they weren't deaf? Would they be there if they had been culled? It's hard to say isn't it. But bearing it in mind I find it fully understandable to believe that some breeders see culling as being the right thing to do by the dogs. Especially older breeders who didn't have the benefit of sending people to special deaf dog training classes and didn't see the same numbers of whites to know that some were able to hear as "everyone was doing it"

I bet you all London to a brick that if we surveyed breeders who cull whites the figures would come up showing that it is older breeders and those newer breeders who are mentored by the same older breeders that are the ones that are culling. People get set in their ways in this world. You see it in all walks. But as long as they think they are doing the best thing who is anyone else to question their ethics? The figures support that deafness is common and they concentrically show that deaf dogs end up in shelters. So what is better, have them killed off in a shelter after they have known life or culled early to avoid the suffering?

It's all a bit of a dilemma really.............

I wouldn't be discarding someone who may be a very good breeder just because they cull whites. You might end up going to someone who keeps the whites but pays scant regard to other more important issues like heart problems, thyroid problems, hip problems etc etc.

For the record, I don't cull any white puppies that are born in my litters. But I will NOT take a stance and judge those who do unless I know the reasons are less than honourable. And be it right or wrong, it is honourable to stop suffering, perhaps culling whites stops a fair bit of that...............................

Article on white boxers by UK Mammalian Geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach can be read at

http://clubs.akc.org/abc/white-deafness.htm

Footnote:

The inheritance of deafness in white boxers is the same as for that in Dalmations. Figures in the UK show the lowest incidence of deafness is 21.6%. The lowest incidence in the US is 29.7%. The difference probably attributable to the fact that in the UK blue eyed dogs are not bred but in the US they are.

As the mode of inheritance is the same in Dalmations and white boxers this is more support to show that the incidence of deafness is very high.

Maybe more later

Matthew

 

[Eddie's mom]

Quote: "And it be right or wrong, it is honourable to stop suffering, perhaps culling whites stops a fair bit of that......"

What suffering? The only real health issue that I have seen proven is the deafness in whites. And that is not all whites..why kill the whites that are not deaf and perfectly healthy just because they are white?? Also the breeder can be very particular to make sure that the whites are placed in the proper homes. There are lots of people out there that would give a deaf white boxer a wonderful home.
I don't want to offend anyone but I feel strongly about this subject because I think of my white boxer and can't imagine that someone would have killed him because he is white. He is a wonderful, healthy boxer.
I agree that you should not breed the whites but I believe they have a right to live.
My Eddie came from a litter of all whites, 13 of them! Only 1 was deaf! They didn't deserve to die. Thank goodness they didn't have to!
As I said, I don't want to offend anyone, or say that what I beleive is right for everyone, I just wanted to put my opinion in.

 

[Eddie's mom]

ME AGAIN........

About the blue eyes....do the blue eye, whites tend to be deaf more??? Is that why you think the numbers are different where they don't breed blue eyed dogs?? Eddie has brown eyes, as does his father. His mother has 1 blue, 1 brown.

 

[JulieM]

I know that in Persian cats blue eyed whites are almost always deaf. I don't know if the mode of inheritance of deafness is the same, but it could very well be.

Matthew's comments, distasteful as they may seem to some, are rational and logical. I know quite a few breeders who don't cull their whites, but do cull their deaf whites. While I won't follow their example (I have too many people who have offered to take a deaf white if I ever have one), I can't condemn them for it.

However, most of the breeders I know that are culling white puppies are not doing it because of deafness (or the possibility of deafness, since actually you cannot really know if a puppy is deaf until at least 3-4 months of age), but because of "increased risks of health problems" in white Boxers. And, although I (and others) have continually asked, they have never been able to offer proof of these increased risks. I do question their ethics on this matter, because it is not based on fact, but on legend that was probably started back when culling whites was a common practice, by someone trying to assuage their guilt at killing perfectly healthy puppies.

The American Boxer Club has never (and probably will never) done any research into this issue, even though by eliminating white Boxers from the gene pool we are also eliminating 20-25% of potentially problem-free hearts, purely on the basis of color.

As for the rescue figures - I've heard them to, but I do think it needs to be noted that the numbers are likely to be skewed - most Boxers are turned in to rescue because of behavior problems, and a deaf dog is more likely to be considered a "problem" by someone who does not know (and will not learn) how to deal with them.

As for the 29.7% incidence of deafness - it should be remembered that this includes dogs that are only deaf or partially deaf in one ear, and does not represent only dogs that are totally deaf.

 

[Marimat]

Hello again,

I guess the danger in this thread, as it always is, is when people take an emotive and simplistic approach to the problem. This is nothing to be scorned as we all love our dogs but without a doubt whenever the issue raises it's ugly head people get to forgetting facts and argue with from their own corner. Most often than not there is a rash of knee jerk replies which don't really prove anything and just promote bad blood.

I always aim to be objective in this issue. I speak philosophically and I stick to facts where they are available.

Now for the reply to Eddie's mom who writes

What suffering? The only real health issue that I have seen proven is the deafness in whites. And that is not all whites..why kill the whites that are not deaf and perfectly healthy just because they are white??

Well I've seen the melanomas and it is not pretty so there is more to it than deafness. I've also seen the general poor health of abandoned dogs that are put in shelters. Many dogs are in a poor state of repair, not just white boxers but remember the figures and how many deaf white boxers end up in shelters. And are all shelters A1. Unfortunately not. And most importantly what about the mental health of the dog? Lets recall the figures from one, and only one rescue group in Dallas. 30 out of 75 white boxers were deaf! 40%!

Now to understand my point one has to step right outside the square and be the dog. Imagine the dogs life. Imagine how many of these dogs had the benefit of deaf training. Imagine how many were given up because the owners thought they were stupid. They didn't come when they were called. They didn't understand the word no and couldn't learn to adjust their behaviour accordingly. A boxer is a boisterous happy dog at the best of times. How does an untrained deaf boxer come to understand that it can't jump up all the time etc etc. Unless it has the benefits of an owner who knows it's needs and takes the time to fulfil those needs it is in a very precarious situation from the start. It won't understand why people are mad at it, and it won't have to be able to hear to know it. It could very well be locked out of the house from the people because it is unruly. It could be getting hit from time to time because it's the only control left for the owner. There is a myriad of things that can go wrong with a deaf dog and unless they are in good hands all these things end up bad!

So if one can't see that a segregated, ostracised, rejected and surrendered dog is not suffering then one is not looking at the big picture!

...why kill the whites that are not deaf and perfectly healthy just because they are white??

Because those breeders that cull don't know which are deaf at an age when culling is performed i.e. at birth. Even the coloured puppies are without hearing up until about 3 weeks of age and then it is too late to cull "just the deaf ones"

Also the breeder can be very particular to make sure that the whites are placed in the proper homes.

Can they? Is it that simple? Firstly I will tell you from my own experience over 13 years that no matter how careful you are there are no guarantees on a home turning out to be ideal. People from the board who know me can attest to how hard it is to get a puppy from me but even so I have ended up having to take some dogs back from time to time as it hasn't worked out or the dog was treated cruelly. I'm sure this has happened to many a breeder. And what of all these deaf white boxers that end up in shelters? Why have they not ended up back at the breeders? Because to many breeders have no clue what they are about and have no care for what happens to what they breed. If it comes down to buying from a breeder who happens to cull whites because they believe it best but still ensure that the pup you do get is cared for if it has to return, as to one who will sell you anything, pocket the money and forget about you and the puppy who would you really rather have a puppy from?

It's ironic really how in one thread we want to criticise and berate people for their breeding practices (insert BYB here if you must) yet because this happens to be about whites suddenly all is OK with them even if half the whites they bred that are deaf end up in shelters.................

If these deaf white boxers had come from anywhere other than a BYB I'm extremely confident that they would of found their way home, to the breeder, and not on death row. Like it not, culling does help prevent this.

There are lots of people out there that would give a deaf white boxer a wonderful home.

But sadly, and obviously, there are as many who can't or won't :(

I don't want to offend anyone but I feel strongly about this subject because I think of my white boxer and can't imagine that someone would have killed him because he is white. He is a wonderful, healthy boxer.

Well you won't offend me

But I ask you to imagine this scenario. Imagine Eddie is not yours. Imagine Eddie is deaf. Imagine Eddie came from a less than scrupulous breeder. Imagine Eddie in a shelter. Imagine Eddie suffering there because he has become an outcast. Eddie and you are one of the lucky pairs. It could all of been different you know. It is for hundreds I'd say. So the philisophical question for responsible breeders would be this. Is it better to have one Eddie happy and full of joy than it is to see hundreds, deaf and hearing, suffering because I chose not to cull?

I agree that you should not breed the whites but I believe they have a right to live

Thank goodness for that!!!

My Eddie came from a litter of all whites, 13 of them! Only 1 was deaf! They didn't deserve to die. Thank goodness they didn't have to!

It'd be remiss of me not to ask the colour of his parents? Were all the puppies tested with the BAER (Brainstem Auditory Evoked Response)test away from litter mates? It's not possible to ascertain hearing status of puppies when they are with their siblings, they will simply follow the hearing puppies. And where are they now? Are they all cosily tucked up on their masters bed? We'd like to think so wouldn't we. Also it's not all about whether they deserve to die. It's also about their right to live strangely enough. Their right to live well and happily without the fear of being expendable. I guess if there was an ironclad guarantee on that less breeders would cull whites. But there isn't and although coloureds can end up in bad homes as well the simple thing is that deaf white boxers have a greater chance, much greater chance, of rejection.

http://www.aht.org.uk/ts7.html

About the blue eyes....do the blue eye, whites tend to be deaf more??? Is that why you think the numbers are different where they don't breed blue eyed dogs?? Eddie has brown eyes, as does his father. His mother has 1 blue, 1 brown

No the blue eyed Dalmations produce greater numbers of deaf Dalmation puppies. I don't actually think anything, it's fact. It comes from a scientific study by a very well known geneticist in the UK, Dr Bruce Cattanach who also happens to be a boxer breeder from the famous Steynmere Kennel.

The point of it is that the mode of inheritance of deafness in Dalmations is the same as in boxers. Therefore, the percentages (not numbers) will be similar. So if the Dallies are producing between 21 and 29 percent then so too will the amount of white boxers that are deaf be in the 20s.
Or 1 in 5, over a large sampling will be deaf. Blue eyed boxers are not as common, probably due to culling in part and the fact they are not commonly bred in part as well. But if they were the same would hold up as the genetics of it all is the same.

We'd all like to think our own little worlds are perfect, and maybe they are. But the bigger world is not and to see clearly I belive we have to look out of our own worlds right into the eye of the big world! It can be ugly, and people do the best they can. Breeders too. It's all too easy to look at the healthy ones and forget, or block out the unfortunate ones. They are out there, and as hard as it is to think that Rover or Bessie or Fido or Fifi are perfect and the prime example of reality..............They're not...

Matthew

 

[Timmy S.]

Just Curious...........

I am reading this thread in interest as I had never heard of the practice of 'culling' before. As horrific as it sounds, I do believe Matt makes some thought provoking comments. However, my curiousity leans towards the legal aspect of this particular practice. I'd like to pose a hypothetical question. If the practice of 'culling' was viewed in person by someone other than the breeder, could that person call the local authorities and report a case of animal cruelty? And if hard evidence was found(i.e. the dead white pups), would the courts even attempt to prosecute? Is this practice socially acceptable in the realm of animal cruelty laws?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Eddie's mom]

Wow Matt that was a thorough reply! LOL. Thank you for being so honest and professional about this.

First I have to ask (pardon me for my dumbness), I am still new at all of this. What is Melanomas??

As for the reply about Eddie's parents, yes they are both white. I was glad to give one of the puppies a home because I know the people and Eddie's parents personally and I know Eddie's parents are great dogs. The breeders, BYB as they would be called here, did explain to any potential buyers the risk of deafness, and sun care. They were told the pups could be returned to them if they were not happy for any reason. The cost of the pups was reasonable I think, $200.00 (tails docked and first set of shots). As I said I do not agree with the breeding of the whites and I won't do it, I'm just letting you know what I know about the litter.

I do see what you are saying about the life of a deaf white boxer if things go the wrong way, I really do, I just find it so hard to believe that culling is the only way to go. It just seems so unfair to kill/just in case. I mean if you look at Eddie's litter with only 1 deaf out of 13, that could happen to any breed, any color. I have had friends and family members over the years that have ended up with deaf dogs, not boxers at all. I know I am trying to simplify this and I shouldn't, it's not simple.

I guess this will always be a debate, no one really has all the answers and no one is "right".

Thanks again Matt for the debate/discussion. I am learning so much here, this place is great!