White Boxer

[JulieM]

Although I think Terry/Rick/Jason/whoever is no longer posting, I have no doubt he'll be back under another name at some point, and since I hate to leave questions unanswered, I'll respond

I find it extremely interesting that, in another post, when I asked him for specific references/page numbers (which he offered to give), he turned around and asked me to provide mine. Perhaps he doesn't really have any? Certainly dogs *other* than white Boxers were culled during the war because of food rationing, I've never said otherwise nor intended to imply it. Again, if as Jason insists the Munich Boxer Club was founded in an attempt to rid the white coloring from the breed, why are there white Boxers registered in the early stud book? The first Boxer registered was the result of a cross between a check Boxer and a white Bulldog; the check Boxer bitch is Boxer #50 in the stud book. (This is from John Wagner's book, I believe, and the ABC website)
White was an allowable coat color in the original 1902 Breed standard - hardly seems as if they were trying to eliminate it at that time!!!

If anyone has a valid reference to back up Jason's claims, I'd be interested in seeing/reading them.

As for breeders only recently being allowed to place white puppies, this is from the ABC Code of Ethics, which until 1985 (I think) included as an infraction of the Code placing Boxers of any color not allowed by the standard.

If breeders were putting down white puppies because they did not meet the standard, wouldn't they also be putting down colored puppies with wry mouths, or light eyes, or bad toplines, or straight shoulders?

The AKC does allow the registration of white Boxers, although you have to call them to get the color code since it is not included on the registration application. The ABC - the Parent Club for the breed - does not allow the registration of white Boxers, and it is the ABC rules that ethical, responsible breeders follow.

Any responsible breeder would only allow a limited registration on a white Boxer so that it could not produce puppies that could be registered.

No - any responsible breeder would not allow registration of any kind on a white Boxer, in accordance with the ABC Code of Ethics, and would only place the puppy on a strict spay/neuter contract (or s/n before placement) so that it could not produce puppies *at all.*

And yes, I have read the Stockmann book; although I am unable to reference it right now since, as I've said before, my copy is on what it turning out to be permanent loan.

 

[JulieM]

Matthew,

You are so much more profitable to converse with

What about if we take a step back and make that mandate now with what we already have to work with and decree that we must not breed flashy/flashy. If we selected each litter to have at least one genetically solid coloured boxer the whole white thing would become a moot point )

Quite right, and Dr. Cattanach noted that the UK was looking into making that requirement, but I don't think it has ever come to fruition. Of course, there are those who feel that white Boxers are not an abomination, so there's no reason not to do a breeding that might produce them.

A good hard objective look at breeders the world over, especially done by an outside source might have one believing that to knowingly produce an animal with a possible genetic fault, deficiency or disease is downright unethical and irresponsible.

So no one should be breeding anything.

A boxer may be born with FVA or AS. We don't want this so we test the dogs and exclude effected animals from breeding. A boxer may be born with dysplastic hips so we get them screened, pay a lot of money for X Rays and if they are effected, we exclude them. A boxer may have Canine Hypothyroidism, PRA, JRA, Spondylosis. So we dutifully test for these diseases and if we come up with one of them, what do we do? We exclude them.............

And none of this eliminates the possibilty of a possible genetic fault. AS and HD are polygenic, a clear-clear breeding does not guarantee clear offspring. FVA can be a late-onset disease, a dog that tests clear for 6 years can turn up with 3000 VPCs at age 7. (Plus, of course, I'd say the majority of breeders in the US are not actually testing for these things....and PRA, JRA, and Spondylosis testing is basically unheard of.....although this does go back to the "ethical" issue.)

I do get your point, Matthew, I truly do - I just don't think it's as clear-cut as all that.

But what of the amount of flash, a goodly percentage will likely be more than a third white, mismarked and so excluded from the ring and future breeding and also where will the next generation of plains come from if we go down the path of breeding white/solid just to get flashy puppies. It's be a self defeating exercise in some ways really. We woulddn't be producing any more plains to go on with. Unless we were able to get acceptance as you said and I see that as unlikely as me being President of the USA LOL LOL

What a scary thought!! And yes, it would create problems, but there will always be those breeders who will not include whites in their breeding program; if it is a mandate that all breedings must include one plain parent, then we will still be getting plains from the flashy/plain breedings. And while plains probably won't be as accepted by all-around judges, the ABC is sending a message to all judges that lack of white markings is not a fault. (The newly issued "Judging the Boxer" booklet addresses this issue, as does a letter from the ABC, both of which were sent to all approved Boxer judges and will be sent to all new Boxer judges.)

Again, this is purely hypothetical because I don't for a second believe the AKC will allow the breeding of whites in my lifetime!

Julie you touch on the possibilty of a white/white breeding producing a coloured puppy. I actually wrote on this in the last white thread. 1 or 2 coloured hairs on an otherwise white dog will genetically make that dog a coloured dog for fawn or brindle whatever the couple of hairs may be coloured. It's the same as 2 fawns producing brindles which has often happened. You only need a minute bit of ticking (brindling) for a dog to be genetically brindle as you know so it is possible.....nay, probable that white/white can = coloured because it would be easy to miss a few coloured hairs that may be, for arguments sake, between the toes of the dog......................

Matthew, I am in full agreement with you that all "whites" are really colored Boxers with an extreme marking pattern. However, current popular belief, at least in this country, is that a white dog has a double-dose of the piebald gene, sW, and so breeding it to another white dog will only produce puppies that have double-doses of the piebald gene, thus only white puppies.

This is far better explained on Beth's site, which is down at the moment, but I think the information is also at Henning/Cecilie's site as well.

I'm not convinced that this is correct, and if white-white breedings are producing colored puppies it cannot be, but that is the generally accepted theory in the US today.

 

[My D-man]

I have enjoyed reading what you all have wrote. One thing popped out at me though. (I bought a white boxer who is now 10 months. I love him to pieces.) My question is: What is this that they (ABC) do not allow the sale of white boxers? If this is true, is there steps that I should take-seeing how I spent a lot of money for my baby? (who by the way was worth every penny). Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Just wondering,
Thanks
Angie and Diamond

 

[JulieM]

What is this that they (ABC) do not allow the sale of white boxers? If this is true, is there steps that I should take-seeing how I spent a lot of money for my baby? (who by the way was worth every penny). Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

The ABC Code of Ethics lists as an infraction, among other things,

e. Selling or consigning for resale a Boxer of a color not allowed by the Standard.

The full CoE is here: http://clubs.akc.org/abc//ethics.htm

As for steps to take - the only thing you really could do is report them to the ABC; and if they're selling white Boxer for a lot of money, they probably aren't members anyway. (If they sold it as a "rare" white Boxer you might have some recourse, since they're not rare, but even that probably wouldn't go very far.)

My advice? Enjoy your Boxer

 

[Spotty's people]

Sorry, I didn't answer, Julie!

I kinda forgot that I posted on this thread, & I stopped getting notices... oh, well.

Anyway, I am so sorry that I cannot find the poll or study that I had read that information in. It would be good to read into it better now & have you guys dissect it! I appreciate all of your experience & knowledge on breeding.

Unfortunately, I came across the study/poll almost 3 years ago now when I started doing research on what kind of dog I wanted to get involved with. I had found it doing some searches on the internet, with some kind of search engine & NEVER BOOKMARKED THE PAGE! Perhaps the study was flawed, perhaps the findings were misinterpreted, I'll never know! I just recall that what they stated was that there were no more occurances of deafness or other conditions in whites than in coloured dogs. But.... what can I say? It was one study in how many?

Anyway. I always heard that white animals are more susceptible to deafness than coloureds. No suprise there.

I'm just very lucky to have a white dogge that is a very good specimen of the breed in other respects. He is a good family pet & a lifesaver for me.

I saw the agility dog "Justice" & was impressed. If that is the only thing that I could do with a white pet dog (i.e. obedience, agility, tracking, etc.) I would be happy. I think that standards in a breed are important.

I met a woman in the Lower Mainland who wanted to breed white boxers. Augh. I think that she was seriously misinformed & heading for trouble. After all, where would she get breeding stock? What reputable breeder with good lines would sell her a dog w/o spay/neuter contract? She'd end up with some serious problem dogs, IMO!

You guys just keep up the swapping of good information... It is great for the rest of us to read.

(Oh yeah, don't forget to "post where you got this information"! LOL:D )
susan

 

[pep0987]

Julie M and Marimat,
I thought I would tell you about Baileys parents. Just for gentic reasons.Mom a plain fawn. Dad a plain brindle. She had 4 pups. 2 brindle females and 2 white /check males. So why is it that people think that only flashy boxers can make white puppies.

 

[JulieM]

Because only *genetically* flashy dogs have the white marking gene to pass on to their offspring. The difficulty lies in that a genetically flashy dog may *look* like a plain dog. There are modifiers to the marking patterns so that a less-modified, genetically flashy dog will look identical to a more-modified, genetically plain one. The Bix-L Boxers page that goes over this very well is down, but the illustrations are also at Boxerhaven:

http://home.online.no/~henlund/English/Information/white/

and this slide specifically:

http://home.online.no/~henlund/English/Information/white/sld023.htm

 

[pep0987]

I know what you mean it just ges me that some people think that only flashy& flashy throw white puppies. It's like if some one has a child and they have blonde hair and the childs other parent has blodne hair and yet the child has red. It's just a matter of which genes that child was given.

 

[TeriLynne]

I read somewhere that the very, very first Boxer many years ago was actually white. Is this true?
Just curious, TeriLynne.

 

[JulieM]

The first Boxer registered in the stud book was a flashy brindle:

http://clubs.akc.org/abc//flocki.htm

Meta von der Passage, who is often called the mother of the breed, was a check. (John Wagner calls her a "parti-color" - today she's probably be called white, but back then whites were solid white.)

http://clubs.akc.org/abc//meta.htm

There were several solid whites in the early days of the breed, because the stud book was still open and Boxers were frequently crossed with white English Bulldogs (Dr Toneissen's Tom was a very influential one). At the time, Boxer-Bulldog crosses were considered to be Boxers (and in fact, Flocki was such a cross, the son of Tom).

There is a lot more information on the history of the breed here:
http://clubs.akc.org/abc//full-hist.htm