When to Stop the Fun?

[Wubbie]

I have a question similar to that of another recent poster, so please forgive me if this is redundant, but...

My Baxter (17 weeks and 20 pounds) torments my Dakota (an 11-year-old chow that weighs about 30 lbs). Dakota completely ignores him 24/7. She NEVER corrects him. No swats. No growls. No nothing. When Baxter grabs her ear and shakes it like it's a dead rabbit, she just sits down and lets him do it. She'll walk around with him literally hanging off of her back and she doesn't do anything.

I've been trying to stop this behaviour by using the command "stop it," and then removing him from her back. The minute I turn my back, he's back on her. Then, I say "stop it," remove him from her, and put him behind a baby gate in the hallway, where there's nothing to do and where he can't see us. He's quiet and calm in there, but the minute I let him out, he's right back on top of her. The only time she gets any peace is when they're seperated or Baxter is tired or occupied with his toys.

So... according to the other posts, I shouldn't even be trying to stop this. But given the fact that Dakota never corrects him, I think I should be doing SOMETHING. Yet what I'm doing still isn't working.

Help!

 

[Wubbie]

Hellooooooo out there. Anybody got any advice for this one?

 

[Sepra]

Just saying stop it and and taking him off of her wont get the message across and neither will putting him behind the gate.

When you say stop it and take him off of her, does he stop a second to pay attention to you or when you take him away is he still focused on her as you're pulling him off saying stop?

 

[TwoDogs]

What your doing is fine. It's really not about correcting your little one, it's about giving your older one some peace and quiet every now and then. They deserve a break from the puppy antics. It's not unusual for dogs to let puppies get away with loads of things that they wouldn't tolerate from older dogs. Eventually, the "puppy license" runs out at between 5-6 months old, and your older dog will start correcting the pup with hard stares, growls, pinning with their paw or jaws, or even snaps. It's normal, and it is how pups learn what they can and can't get away with. When that starts just watch to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. In the meantime, keep giving your older one breaks from the pup and provide a place for them to go that is puppy-free if possible.

 

[ELubas]

I would definetely stop it and I would make sure your older pup has peace. If that means keeping them mostly separated then so be it. The time may come when the older dog tells the younger to back off but the size difference needs to be accounted for. As long as the younger one respects your older girl, and he probably will, then they will be fine. In the meantime it is up to you to give your old girl the rest she needs so I would get more excercise for Baxter. Are there some "youngins" his own age he can romp with? That would get him tired and give your girl a break. Good luck with your wild one-I have one too!

 

[katisblonde]

We can relate! Hope this helps.

Our baby Kingston has the same problem with my parent’s lab Diego. Diego will let Kingston climb all over, bite him in his haunches, at times mount him, and pull his tail (at first we thought Kingston had tail envy). We tried to stop him by pulling him off, separating them, discipline, discipline, and more discipline for Kingston.

The only thing that has ‘worked’ and I used that term loosely because we are still working on it is when we catch him in the middle of which ever negative act he is doing, pull him off of Diego, tell him to sit and stay, reward the sitting and staying after about 4 mintues, and tell him ‘play nice’ (that is the term we use) when we let him return to playing with Diego. Kingston sort of sits there confused about what just went down but he has started to restart his behavior to nicer play with Diego when we let him go back to playing when we do that. I think that puppies just get too overzealous and forget what good behavior is and what is naughty.

You could also try a clicker for positive/ negative reinforcement. They are pretty cheap (1.19 is what we paid). And basically when he is getting too rough with your other doggy click it and then immediately put him in time out, eventually he will realize that when he hears the click he will go in time out so it is time to stop whatever he is doing.

We hope this helps!
Kingston, Kathryn and Scott

 

[TwoDogs]

You could also try a clicker for positive/ negative reinforcement. They are pretty cheap (1.19 is what we paid). And basically when he is getting too rough with your other doggy click it and then immediately put him in time out, eventually he will realize that when he hears the click he will go in time out so it is time to stop whatever he is doing.

Whoa! That is soooo NOT how most people use clickers. I am not saying that you can't do what the above poster described, but I just want to say that it is the complete opposite of what clicker/positive reinforcement training is about. I just want to make sure that anyone who may read the above post knows that that is not how clicker training is described or taught.

In a nutshell, in clicker training, the clicker marks a behavior that you want the dog to REPEAT. Then you immediately reward that behavior with a treat, toy, rub, or something else the dog finds rewarding. The principle behind it is that you only mark and reward the good and the dog will learn that that is the only acceptable behavior and will then work harder to do the good thing.

What the above poster is recommending is to use the clicker to mark the bad behavior and then administer a punishment (removal from play) as a consequence. The pup in that scenario is learning that the clicker marks wrong behavior and is followed by a punisher. If you want to use clicker training in the future as it is taught in classes, the above action could poison your pup to the clicker. Again, it is exactly opposite to how clicker training is taught.

What is described above is a positive punishment training method that uses the clicker to mark the undesired behavior. It's obviously not as bad as positive punishment training that uses a prong/choke collar correction or zap from a electronic collar to mark the undesired behavior, but the principle is the same.

When using clicker training as it was developed to be used, the clicker IS NOT used as an attention-getter, or to mark an undesireable behavior. In true clicker training the click is used to mark the desired behavior that you then reinforce with some kind of reward.

Again, I'm not going to say the the above quoted scenario has worked for the poster who suggested it. I also won't say that it won't work for anyone else who tries it--after all, there are many who think that punishment (however mild it may be) is an effective training tool. I just want to make sure that anyone who may read the above post knows that that is not how clicker training is described or taught.

 

[Wubbie]

OK... so what I'm hearing is that I can let him play with her, but then I need to allow her some down time to detox from his play fest. And eventually... she'll correct him and this behavior will stop.

Is that the consensus?

 

[ELubas]

OK... so what I'm hearing is that I can let him play with her, but then I need to allow her some down time to detox from his play fest. And eventually... she'll correct him and this behavior will stop.

Is that the consensus?

I would say so. Play is only fun if both are enjoying it so the minute your older one is not engaging that is the time to stop it, if the dog does not do it on thier own

 

[boxmom]

I experienced the same issue when puppy Fred joined the family. 8 year old Lucy let him get away with everything. Fred is now 10 months old and Lucy has just started to treat him as an equal--meaning she will now snap at him or give a little growl here and there to get him off her back. Of course he doesn't really get it yet, but he's showing signs. We will seperate them from time to time like the above posters mentioned, when it seems Lucy has had enough of the little guy. He still likes to grab on to her ears, and the back of her hind legs.