What should I do?

[bradybunch]

We were using wet EVO 95% Beef as his mix in with the SG and once or twice a week we would use a raw egg. We made the switch because Spike had started to turn his nose up to the CS and was not really excited about it like he used to. I think this last episode came from a toy he chewed up and "passed" out the other end. The vet said that it probably scraped his intestines and that is why he had the runny poo and throwing up. Since his trip to the vet he hasn't thrown up anymore or had the runny poo, it was just mushy yesterday. I reduced the amount of kibble and increased the chicken and potatoes and he had a normal poo this morning. I am thinking of keeping the chicken and potatoes as his add ins because he goes nuts over his food now. I would love to try the RAW but with my 4 year old son I am a little worried about the bacteria that he might come in contact with. What is Prozyme?

 

[gmacleod]

Also, I know that what I'm about to say is sacreligious on this board, but... some dogs don't do well rotating their foods. Spike may be of that "persuasion". Once you find that food that fits his niche, you may want to stay with it until he tells you it's time to change.

It's not sacriligious But this is a dog who had loose stools semi-permanently on Chicken Soup, and that firmed up admirably with the switch to Solid Gold (until recently, that is). I'd thus hazzard a guess that it has little to do with food rotation.

Rotating foods doesn't work for every dog (nothing works for every dog). But there are a lot of good reasons for doing it, avoidance of food sensitivities being top of the list. Frequency is certainly something that needs to be tailored to the individual though (and there may be occassional dogs for whom only one or two foods are suited).

As for puppy protein... the minimum allowable level is 22% for pups (0-6 months). And generally, available information suggests that exceeding about 26% for growing pups may not be wise. That said, I'd generally aim for a food in the 24-26% protein range

However, I wouldn't be especially concerned with the "low" protein in Mmillennia, since in this case it's being fed in conjunction with EVO canned.

I do note though, that whilst his stools improved on a grainless bland diet, the reintroduction of kibble isn't being well received. I wonder if this pup might not be better on a grainless food (there are a couple in the Natural Balance line that aren't high protein - but may need a little supplementation, since they're only about 21% protein). Timberwolf's Ocean Blue is another, possibly better, proposition.

 

[bradybunch]

Thanks GMAC! I was actually considering Timberwolf Ocean Blue for the next rotation, but I am going to hold off until I can get him "stable" for a couple of weeks. Is there anything else I should add in with the chicken and potatoes for nutrition purposes, as long as he is having normal BM's? I did add a little yogart this morning because he had some gas last night. I know that the chicken and potatoes are for short term feeding, and he has almost been on it week. Call it what you want but from the begining I had a "mother's instinct" gut feeling that his trouble was with the grains since he had problems on the CS and he is okay on the Chicken and Potatoes.

 

[dalefuller]

There ya go... that's why I was trying to get them to search your posts to get the right info from the best source!

The rotation remark was tongue-in-cheek but nevertheless true for some dogs that I've known and even some that have lived with me. A few of my wards have been cast iron and nothing has bothered them. Others have been real sensitive systematically to change and still others were just picky eaters.

I was sure that mid-20's was the right range for a growing puppy and I knew that the grainless foods mentioned in the thread were well above that. The Innova kibble that Molly eats is 24% protein and the little bit of canned Innova that she gets for gravy won't raise it very much. I was going by that as a guideline and I was mostly concerned that Spike was going to get enough protein without getting overweight.

Thanks for the info on the protein ranges. We're breeding again in the spring and it'll be good info to have for the new litter.

 

[gmacleod]

Well, I think a grainless food is certainly worth trying next (hate to bring it up at this point in time, but there are some dogs who simply don't ever tolerate kibble of any kind...). There's no need to assume that's Spike's case by any means, because not much has been tested yet really, but it is worth bearing in mind...

What we know so far is that CS gave him loose stools, but he's OK with chicken/potato. Was it CS puppy? Well, actually it doesn't matter that much - I was wondering if it might have been the high fat content (affects quite a few pups, who then do fine on CS adult - the old formulas, anyway). But if that had been the case, you wouldn't be having trouble with Solid Gold (which is low fat). Rice or other grains (or grains in general) could indeed be the issue.

Anyway, yes, getting his bowel movements stabilised on chicken/potato is the best thing for now. Another week or so should be plenty of time for any irritation to his intestines or bowel to clear up. I don't think it's worth adding anything new into his food at this point - it risks setting him back again, and while chicken/potato doesn't constitue a balanced diet, it's not going to kill him to be on that only for 2-3 weeks total.

Since your guy is still a growing pup, I would be inclined to head toward the Timberwolf formula ahead of Natural Balance (which is just a bit low in protein content), even though it's not quite such a simple food. If it is grains that are the problem, this one should still be a good option and is a better quality product overall. I think the Solid Gold has proven that low-ish protein and fat aren't the solution.

Hopefully with a nice gentle transition, he will do well on that one

 

[gmacleod]

Thanks for the info on the protein ranges. We're breeding again in the spring and it'll be good info to have for the new litter.

Dale: you might be interested in this discussion on grainless foods, high protein and puppies: http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107118

LOL - or it might just make things over-complicated. IMO, we're at a point in the knowledge about dry foods and the effects on puppy growth that it's still prudent to err on the side of caution with pups and protein/calorie levels, not just calcium. But who knows? Maybe in 5 years time we'll all be looking back and wondering why we ever thought it was a problem.

 

[dalefuller]

I still remember...

Dale: you might be interested in this discussion on grainless foods, high protein and puppies: http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107118

LOL - or it might just make things over-complicated. IMO, we're at a point in the knowledge about dry foods and the effects on puppy growth that it's still prudent to err on the side of caution with pups and protein/calorie levels, not just calcium. But who knows? Maybe in 5 years time we'll all be looking back and wondering why we ever thought it was a problem.

Five years can be a lifetime in terms of how much our knowledge increases. I still remember ("remember" mind you, not hearsay from my parents) when Purina and Hill's were just about the only two commercial food choices and Eukanuba was considered "extreme" for a dog food. Many, if not most dogs, still ate table scraps almost exclusively and you could get fresh bones from the butcher for your dogs.

Actually, I'm working toward home cooking / raw for the adults and I may try something like that for the pups as soon as they're old enough. The biggest problem may be that our buyers won't want to continue that and they'll downgrade their pup's diet to a commercial food. Still, it may be worth doing for as long as the puppies can eat it and we will be sending nutritional information including home cooked recipes (as well as information about vaccinations, over-vaccinations, titer tests, and help for finding a holistic vet) with each pup's "info package".

Anyway... Thanks for that link. I'll check it out and add it to our kennel's resource database.

 

[gmacleod]

Well, if you end convinced by raw, you could always raise youngsters on both (not in the same meal, of course, but some raw meals and some kibble). Then send them off to their new parents with an information pack extolling the virtues of natural feeding, and the importance of high quality kibble if they can't face raw :D LOL

 

[dalefuller]

Well, if you end convinced by raw, you could always raise youngsters on both (not in the same meal, of course, but some raw meals and some kibble). Then send them off to their new parents with an information pack extolling the virtues of natural feeding, and the importance of high quality kibble if they can't face raw :D LOL

That's a good idea. I was wondering whether mixing two types of feeding styles would be OK. My sister (the other owner of the kennel) used to feed raw anyway and only stopped because of prep time issues.

Thanks again.