To click or not to click.

[LittleRockyCole]

I have done a lot of reading on clicker training, is it best to use clicker training or traditional "good boy!" training or both, or does it just depend on the trainer?

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Also, I've read that when you are using treats for training they must be very good treats... good enough to keep the dogs attention. From what I've learned, most commercial doggy treats aren't good enough to keep their attention for more than a few minutes. Some trainers recommend small peices of hot dog. I've read about bloat being one of the common health problems of boxers and it can be caused by eating too much "human" food. Will the small peices of hot dog hurt my boxer and does anyone have any good suggestions for some treats that Rocky will really like alot? :confused:

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

Clicker training can be fun and is very effective. The problem I find with teaching people to clicker train is timing. The timing of the "click" needs to be pretty precise and it is very difficult for many people.

As for whether it is better than the traditional treat and praise method, I would say, in my opinion, if the traditional method is applied correctly is is equally as effective as clicker training. I used the traditional "treat and praise" method with my dogs, but then I found clicker training a bit difficult for me with two dogs, two leashes, a bag of treats and a clicker! I only have two hands!

As for treats, many, many people have used hot dogs, freeze dried liver bits, kibble, small pieces of cheese works well too. The idea behind the treat is not to fill the dog up, but to give him just a "taste" of the treat, a very small bite so he can quickly ingest it and be done with it and ready to move on in training. I don't think bloat is something to worry about when giving training treats.

I have used puppy biscuits, halved; different kibbles, and cheese. I use cheese when I am having difficulties getting the dogs to cooperate and need to "up the ante" a bit with a better treat. They both absolutely love cheese so they respond very well to training when I use it.

Good luck. You can do a search here at Boxerworld using search words such as "training treats" and you'll find many threads with lots of treat suggestions.

 

[JulieM]

The timing of the click needs to be precise, but the good news is that if it isn't, you haven't done any major damage to the dog You may inadvertently shape a behavior you don't necessarily want, but as your timing gets better you can shape the desired behavior and the unwanted one will fade.

Of course, the timing of praise needs to be precise as well - regardless of what technique you use, you need to reward the behavior you want to continue. Clicking or giving a "good boy" for a sit when the dog is starting to stand up doesn't tell the dog anything useful - the dog will think it is being rewarded for standing up, not for sitting. Clicker trainers prefer the click to a verbal because it is a short sound (you could click twice in the time it takes to say 'good'), and thus inherently more precise than verbal praise, and because it is a consistent sound (not subject to vocal inflection).

It's really a personal preference, and as long as you aren't using physical corrections it doesn't matter to me which technique you use I prefer the clicker for the above reasons - plus I am shaping very specific things like exact foot placement on a free-stack - I need the precision that I can't get with a verbal. (And when my hands are full - or in the ring - I just use a tongue-click; not quite as precise, but close to a click sound and shorter than a verbal.)

Dan, I am curious though - you mention you use "treat and praise" training. Is that the order of it - treat and then praise? Or is it praise and then treat, so that the praise is the event marker like a clicker would be?

As far as treats, Dan is right on and I've not heard of bloat being caused by too much human food. (And my dogs only eat 'human' food ) There is an ingredient in certain kibbles that increases the risk of bloat; can't think of it at the moment, maybe a kind of citrate, but the Purdue study found an definite association. The important thing, as Dan mentioned, is that they are small enough to be eaten quickly and not interfere with the flow of training. The super-yummy treats are for 'hard' situations - learning new behaviors, or working around distractions, etc. The treats don't always have to be super-yummy (and shouldn't be), and around home my guys often get Cheerios or pretzel bits. For new things, or in class, they get hot dogs, chicken, cheese, liver, steak - yummy stuff. Once they're more comfortable in class or with a new behavior/distraction/etc., I'll mix up yummy and not-so-yummy treats - which often serves to increase focus, because they never know which time they'll get the yummies!

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

Julie,

Yes, it is praise and then treat. Pardon my poetic license.

The praise is equivalent to the click as a marker.

 

[JulieM]

No problem, Dan, I just was going to get really confused if it was the other way around

 

[Moon&Lily]

I have found clicker training to be very successful with my two babies. Although I can only work with one at a time because of only having two hands. I try to use a couple of different treats depending on what I am rewarding. Their two favorites are cheese balls (Planters) and cut up hot dogs. I do not have alot of experience in training but have found that the more I practice, the more coordinated I have become working the leash, clicker (at the right time) and the treats. Also as Moon and Lily have progressed, the commands they know really well, like sit and down, do not need a click anymore. Just a treat and/or praise.

 

[neilsmom2000]

My $.02 on the subject

With Lara, I find it helpful to have two different kinds of treats, one sort of yummy and one really super yummy for when she gets bored of the first one. Usually I'll use goldfish crackers (there is a constant supply of them in my house as I have a toddler), because they are small, light and have a very strong cheesey/salty taste for such a tiny cracker. If Lara gets bored of goldfish we move onto small pieces of meat. Our trainer provides an emergency stash of cut up hot dogs in case anybody's dog is getting bored of their treats. And for the record, we give praise and then the treat.

That's it!

neilsmom and Lara (9 month old flashy fawn with a super smile!)