Territorial?????

[Chad S.]

Hi! We have a Boxer/Rottweiler mix boy who will be wo in April. We also have Missy, our one year old female Boxer, but anyway......Cyrus is a very good boy. You really couldn't ask for a btter dog, but we are having some trouble with him being a bit territorial with the yard. He use to charge the fence alot this Summer at people ging by, but I have worked very hard in stopping this. He still barks and barks at people alot, but the fence charging has stopped.........until a few weeks ago.
We got a new paper carrier. He's an older man, a very odd man who rides this bike with a big basket in the back and he's always smoking a cigar. He weaves back and forth on the bike, Cyrus does not like this man for some reason. Cyrus knows when he comes by somehow and he wants out, he runs all through the house trying to see this man, barking, with his fur standing on end. I tell Cyrus ENOUGH, but Cyrus just doesn't quit.
Now, I have control over Cyrus. I'm 99.9% sure he would never hurt anybody, he's just territorial, but still, I can't chance it and I can't let him out when this man is going by because he runs from one end of the fence to the other, barking , his fur is standing up on the back of his neck......it just looks bad and Cyrus doesn't need to act like that anyway. He's always been overly "cautious" about people or things that a little diffrent, I'm not really sure why.
Do you guys have any suggestions that I can use with Cyrus......this summer I did like a tie down with him in the yard so he couldn't charge the fence. It's really like it's all an act, he acts tough, but really, when someone is actually brave enought o come up to the fence after his act, he's all kidney beaning and gets SO excited. I thought about asking this man on the bike to come and pet Cyrus, or maybe give him some treats to give Cyrus, but I don't know if I trust this man well enough. Maybe I should just keep Cyrus in and work on telling him enough or NO. He usually always listens to me, but he really wants out to bark at this man.
(By the way.......this is Kristen posting this one, Chad's wife
ps.......can I get my own name on this board or do I have to continue using his?

 

[Chad S.]

That's suppose to say he will be TWO in April

Sorry about the spelling

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

I would suggest that when the carrier comes by and the dog gets to barking and charging the fence, you engage the dog in some other activity, like a game of chase/fetch to re-associate whatever it is he is upset about over this man into an association that when he comes by your house, the dog gets to play a fun game instead of barking and lunging.

You may have to start in the house and then transfer it outside, and of course it will take time and patience.

Good luck.

 

[Lukin2069]

Maybe you can try to introduce your dog to the carrier. Speak to the carrier and explain the situation, and see if he would let you try to have them meet. Once your dog has 'met' him, maybe he wouldnt be so wild...

 

[Nicole510]

Do NOT let the man pet your dog. You have no idea why the dog doesn't like him and why risk a lawsuit or having your dog put down? If your dog IS territorial you have to deal with that problem. If your dog was NOT territorial that man could ride by in a clown suit with a chimpanzee on his head and not have to endure your dog's barking.

Look in the library for a book called "Grrrr!". I just read it...it deals with all types of aggression and what causes them and what you can do for them. I've utilized the suggestions and haven't had a problem with Duke growling or barking in 2 whole days. Ok, not exactly miraculous but if you knew Duke you'd understand.

I tell Cyrus ENOUGH, but Cyrus just doesn't quit.
Now, I have control over Cyrus. <-- If you had control over Cyrus he would quit. I'm not saying you don't have partial control...don't get me wrong. I sound like a know-it-all but I also sounded just like you about 2 weeks ago...pre-Grrrr!!

It sounds like Cyrus is territorial...your job is to find out why. Is it fear aggression? Dominance aggression? Cyrus shouldn't be picking and choosing who to bark at...it shouldn't be anyone. (Even a clown with a chimp).

Good luck!!

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

Originally posted by Nicole510
Do NOT let the man pet your dog. You have no idea why the dog doesn't like him and why risk a lawsuit or having your dog put down?

I would agree with this. You really need to deal with the behavior of the dog, not put the man at risk.

Look in the library for a book called "Grrrr!". I just read it...it deals with all types of aggression and what causes them and what you can do for them. I've utilized the suggestions and haven't had a problem with Duke growling or barking in 2 whole days. Ok, not exactly miraculous but if you knew Duke you'd understand.

. . .

It sounds like Cyrus is territorial...your job is to find out why. Is it fear aggression? Dominance aggression? Cyrus shouldn't be picking and choosing who to bark at...it shouldn't be anyone. (Even a clown with a chimp).

I would tend to disagree partially. The cause of the behavior is not as important as dealing with the behavior itself and teaching the dog to control his own behavior, or at the least be trained to control his behavior after being commanded to do so in some way. We have no way of actually "knowing" what causes all aggression in dogs. We aren't dogs. We can only deal with the BEHAVIOR itself, and if we recognize triggers to unwanted behavior, do our best to de-stigmatize those triggers for the dog. The cause will become irrelevant once the dog understands that the barking/lunging aggressive behavior is unacceptable and there are other ways to deal with whatever is causing such behavior in the dog.

As for "picking and choosing who to bark at. . . " I would also partially disagree. If a dog (boxer particularly) senses that something isn't right with someone, that that person may be feared by the dog FOR GOOD REASON. If you train OUT of the dog the ability or choice of choosing who is a threat to the dog or to YOU and your FAMILY, you could be causing yourself issues later. I think we all want to feel safe and our dogs give us all a sense of security and safety. Why train that out of a dog who is BRED to pick and choose who is "safe" and who isn't?

So, maybe the carrier isn't a nice person and would really like to harm your dog. Perhaps your dog senses that and is responding only as he can, by barking/warning and protecting his territory. Now, this may be fear aggression, or dominance agression or territorial aggression. However, if you deem that the carrier is OK and wouldn't harm you or the dog, you have the ability, if the training of this behavior is proper, to CONTROL such behavior rather than extinguish the dog's ability to express his fears/anxiety/territory, etc., etc.

It is much the same, in my view, as training a dog to "soft bite" rather than training a dog never to bite at all. If the dog has to fight for its life and has been trained never to bite, he's dead meat. But, if he knows the DIFFERENCE between play or "soft" biting and real fighting for his life, and can CONTROL such behavior or you can control such behavior in the dog, the dog is much better off and can then have a chance in real life to defend himself in he needs to and not be killed by some other dog or animal or even PERSON if that person is trying to harm the dog.

Just my thoughts on your post.

 

[Nicole510]

Hey there Dan...
You're a big proponent of "The Dog Listener" (which I can't get my hands on) which means I knooow you read - I think you should read "Grrrr!" as well.

I would have agreed with all the points you brought up prior to reading this book. There are different types of aggression (according to the authors) and different ways to handle them all. In the book it gives you tests and such and helps you figure out what type of aggression your dog has. It described my 2 dogs to a "T" which is why I'm so impressed by it. This is why I said it would be her/his job to figure out what type of aggression the dogs were displaying.

As far as picking and choosing I'm going to have to disagree right back at ya Dan. If my dogs are secure behind a fence I don't expect them to bark at anyone NOT coming up to the fence or the house. This I believe was the situation explained to us? I would however expect them to bark at someone invading their "territory" as an alert to me...not because they wanted to rip off heads.

Don't you think, that if a dog has to 'fight for his life' that his natural instincts would kick in? Just a thought on that comment.

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

I'll read the book, before I comment further. I am, however, very aware of the different kinds of aggression in dogs. I specialize in rehabilitating and workign with aggressive dogs. Believe me, I have studied and studied and continue to do so every chance I get to.

But, you are right, there are different kinds of aggression and some need to be dealt with differently. However, because it may not always be clear-cut (dominance and territorial aggression tend to go hand in hand -- guarding aggression is different than territorial aggression, fear aggression is often only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to aggressive behaviors in dogs, etc., etc.) and are often a combination of many factors, it is best in my opinion as a trainer and behaviorist, that the BEHAVIOR is what has to be dealt with FIRST. regardless of the cause.

As for a dog who is forced to fight for his life, no I disagree there as well. (We're on a roll here ) I've seen it too many times where a dog who has been "trained" never to bite, simply rolls over and submits to a bigger dog, and gets ripped to shreds. Dogs who do not know how to defend themselves will simply turn over and "hope" their submissive body language will save them. Unfortunately, not all other dogs understand those signals, some have them trained out of them, others have had no socialization, etc., etc., etc. In the end, it is the dog who is submissive and trained not to bite or fight that loses.

Just my further thoughts. I'll order a copy of the book this morning.

 

[Nicole510]

I give!! :p I will bow to your exerptise as a behaviorist!! I am solely an ex-obedience instructor with very limited aggression knowledge. LOL!!

Chew on this one and tell me what you think...

In the book they advise that one of the first things to do is 'retrain' your dog (mind you I don't have a copy in front of me so this is from memory) in obedience and to establish yourself as the alpha.

I've tried this with Duke and he seems to be behaving a bit better as far as his aggression goes. From what I understood in my reading some dogs become terr. aggressive because they don't understand their place in the home. Especially if there's more than one dog in that home.

Yes? No?

 

[Tulsa-Dan]

I would agree that a dog that does not know his proper role in the pack can become overly territorial, overly protective, and exhibit other aggressive tendencies. I too believe it is important to establish proper pack leadership before attempting to deal with aggression issues. If the dog doesn't respect you and trust you as Leader, he will not understand nor will he follow your lead. He will continue to believe it is his responsibility to protect everything in his sight, and aggression is often a result of this stress.

So, yes, we do agree on some things!