Seizure vs. Boxer Cardiomyopathy?

[rjkline]

Sorry, this is going to be long. But any advice would be greatly appreciated!

This weekend my Husband and I had taken Bentley out of a walk. It was very cold outside, and we didn't want to spend too much time freezing. So we did something we do often, and stand far from each other and call Bentley back and forth between us, so he gets some exercise and releases some energy.

Well, he ran back and forth once and was on his way back to my Husband. He got about 10ft from him and stopped. I was too far away to see much of anything, but as my Husband describes it....Bentley made a dry heaving action, like he was trying to vomit, then he lifted his back leg really high and kind of tucked it up to his body. Then he just literally fell over onto his side. My Husband ran to him, and Bentley started kicking all his feet really fast. When my Husband got to him he put his hands on his neck trying to calm him down. Bentley's eyes were wide open. And my Husband said his name and Bentley reacted and got up. He says he seemed a bit dazed. But otherwise just fine. He doesn't think that Bentley ever lost consciousness, or if he did it was for a split second. Since the whole thing lasted about 10-15 seconds.

I saw my Husband start to walk him towards our house holding his collar, so I started to head back. Not sure what was going on.
When I got back to the house very shortly after my Husband and Bentley did, I saw that he had Bentley laying on the floor. When I asked, my Husband said he thought Bentley had a seizure. Bentley was acting totally himself soon after he stood up outside. So there were no lasting effects.

We have a vet appt in about an hour. I'm just very worried and could use any information anyone has about seizures or cardiomyopathy.

After doing research on my own those are the only 2 possibilities I could find. And I know that Cariomopathy is probably more plausible since he is a Boxer.

We live in a fairly small town, and I'm hoping they know something if anything about Boxer Cardiomyopathy.

Right now my plan of action is to see what the vet has to say, and probably see about renting a Holter Monitor to do a 24hr ECG on him. So if anyone on here has one they would rent to me, or knows of a place where I could rent one please let me know.

I don't know if it makes much sense or not, but I'm really hoping it was just a seizure one time thing! The idea of it being a heart issue has me all kinds of worried and stressed!

Thanks for any advice!!

 

[Cami]

My girl had two collapsing heart related episodes that I was able to witness. She had one seizure that I heard and then saw the remnants of.
Heart collapses were literally where she just went down (fell over after a slight stumble). No thrashing about, no loss of bladder.
Dazed and really tired after the fact.

Her seizure (we assume) started out with her thrashing so much that she literally fell off of a bed. I heard it and ran to her. She was kicking front and back legs uncontrollably. She also lost control of her bladder. I called her name and she responded by getting up. She was dazed a bit but nothing like the other episodes.

I think a big clue for your guy was the fact that you mention he lifted his hind leg up really high and it was tucked up underneath him. That TO ME sounds more muscular in nature. Something that sounds more typical of a seizure where their muscles contract without them trying to make them do so.

Sadly seizures are not often a "one time thing". There is a cause for them. They may happen infrequently or become more frequent. The big problem is determining a cause. Testing for various types of seizures are expensive (MRI). Untreated thyroid issues can cause seizures (my girls cause) as well as a whole host of other possible ailments.

A holter would need to be done by a cardiologist. At minimum a cardiologist would need to interpret the testing results if you could get your hands on the equipment (hard to do). Not impossible but hard.

Hopefully your vet can help you to shed some light on the situation. *Most* of the time when they think seizure and it isn't something obvious by blood work they will take the wait and see approach. You literally have to wait on pins and needles for another to happen. You could of course take the proactive approach and start running tests to determine a cause however sometimes you won't get any answers.

 

[rjkline]

Well, the vet wasn't a lot of help. But she did say that by the way my Husband explained what happened she would be more likely to assume seizure. The only thing that would make her lean heart at all was the fact that it happened while he was running. And she did suggest the wait and see approach. Which I hate, but budget wise can't afford to go all out on MRIs and CATs. She didn't even suggest any blood work. So I am going to call another vet in the area and see what they say.

I didn't know that the Thyroid could cause seizures, so I will bring that up to the vet when I talk to one next. Thanks!

I am going to do the holter monitor if I can get my hands on one. The vet did say they would help me make sure he was hooked up properly and they would send his results off to be read by a cardiologist. I had read that a lot of breeders have them and rent them out from time to time. So hopefully I can get my hands on one.

 

[johann]

It does sound more like a seizure than a heart related collapse, but you never know without doing some testing (I'd probably balk at a MRI and CT scan due to the sheer cost of them!). A holter monitor is never a bad idea with boxers.

If you can't find a boxer breeder with a holter, look at your local doberman club or breeder. Dobes are very prone to heart problems as well, and should have a holter done before breeding.

Any chance that the incident was from a muscle spasm in his back leg? Those can be really painful- which could explain the dry heave, thrashing, and falling over.

I hope your boy is feeling better soon.

 

[Cami]

Info on thyroid and seizures:

If your dog has seizures check the thyroid for low thyroid function or hypothyroidism

There is also a connection between untreated thyroid issues and heart problems. Untreated thyroid can lead to arrhythmia's which lead to cardiomyopathy (or other electrical heart related issues).

 

[rjkline]

Thanks, I did do some research after you mentioned Thyroid. Bentley has gained some weight just recently. We had assumed it was due to his sudden interest in food. He used to be so nonchalant when it came to food. Then about 2 months ago he took an interest in it and wants and even demands food if he his bowl is empty. I couldn't find any information linking increased hunger to thyroid, but I can't dismiss his weight gain as a thyroid symptom. So I'll definitely be looking into it.

 

[rjkline]

Any chance that the incident was from a muscle spasm in his back leg? Those can be really painful- which could explain the dry heave, thrashing, and falling over.

I wouldn't think spasm just because when he fell he fell as if he was a statue, straight to his side. And the dry heave happened before he lifted his leg, and the thrashing looked more like he was running in place on his side. But, this is all how my Husband saw it. I wish I had been closer so I could have seen it myself. And I think my Husband is getting a bit annoyed with me questioning and questioning him.

 

[johann]

I wouldn't think spasm just because when he fell he fell as if he was a statue, straight to his side. And the dry heave happened before he lifted his leg, and the thrashing looked more like he was running in place on his side. But, this is all how my Husband saw it. I wish I had been closer so I could have seen it myself. And I think my Husband is getting a bit annoyed with me questioning and questioning him.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a spasm then.

I hope you get it all figured out soon

 

[rjkline]

I called the nearest Cardio vet and got a quote.

$150 for the heart exam
$280 for an Echo
$100 for a quick ECG
$375 for 24 ECG

I'm just wondering for those of you who have been through this. If you had to choose between the Echo and 24 ECG which would you choose? I would like to do both, but I may have to put off one until I can financially do it. Also, is a quick couple minute ECG something I should consider or not? Since it may or may not catch an arrhythmia.

I've been lead to believe that an Echo isn't going to necessarily tell if there is an arrhythmia? But, when getting the quote was told that the Vet will probably recommend the Echo and then possibly a 24 ECG.

Is an Echo the standard diagnostic?

 

[Gatorblu]

If I remember right, the echo gives you a "picture" of the heart. It will tell if the heart is enlarged and/or if there is any physical defects. The 24 hr ECG or holter monitor will tell you how may irregular beats in a 24 hr period. Personally if you have to chose only one I would go with the 24 hr monitor. That way you can also see if there is changes during certain activities. A short ECG may miss any irregularities. Also if you are concerned about the money you can get Care Credit which can give you some time to pay it off interest free.