Punishment?

[Canuck]

Is it ever necessary to use physical force to correct a Boxer? I am very much for positive reinforcement, and do not like the thought of physical punishment. I am still researching breeds, and have spent some time on a Rottweiler board looking for information. There are a few people on that board who use only positive methods, but many others who feel they (those using only P+ reinforcement) have been blessed with easy dogs, and to wait until they have a difficult dog, then they will know that it can't be all praise and no punishment. Someone's solution for a dog mounting a person was to put a prong collar on it and give it a jerk when it starts the behaviour. Are there those here who feel it is necessary to use force with a 'difficult' Boxer, or can they be trained soley with praise for good, ignore the bad methods. I do not want a dog that I have to scare into obeying me. I hope that this message is coherent enought to get some replies! Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Krikkit]

Canuck, we live with four Boxers who have never had any physical punishment at all They are clicker trained, at the most we use a word which lets them know they will not get a reward (usually called a 'non-reward marker'), generally 'ah-ah' or similar. Many years ago we did train using compulsive, aversive methods simply becuase that is what "everyone" was doing, but for us, positive reinforcement works so much better.

Our current four Boxer are by no means perfect so I can not say we have been 'blessed' by having easy dogs to train In her previous life before coming to live with us Bella was somewhat of a horror :D When dealing with dogs who are 'difficult' as I have to do from time to time I use postive training as well. Using a prong or shock collar here is not possible anyway as they are illegal, so we have a choice of flat collar, check chain or head collar. We train our own dogs on a flat collar or with no collar. I really like this article by Ian Dunbar 'The Macho Myth' http://www.clickersolutions.com/clickersolutions/articles/macho.htm

 

[nelson]

I can't see that punishment is ever warranted. Your dog should see you as the "pack leader" so to train and discipline your dog you have to think and "talk" like a dog.

Tone of voice is a very powerful tool. A firm "NO", growling and other "I'm not happy" sounds are very effective. Happy, encouraging tone for reward and command tone for instruction.

Dogs are very good with Command/Reward/Discipline voice tones. Correct actions get a reward tone and pats and hugs. Incorrect actions get "NO" and other discipline voice tones as the situation suits.

Your dog only wants to please you. To get him/her to do this, get into the dog's mind. Use rewards (food, voice, pats/hugs) when they do correct things. Dogs very quickly learn what gets them good response from their owners (they are happy if you are) and learn to avoid the non-rewarding actions.

Dogs have a pecking order in your family too and you should use this to assert your dominance when needed. Put your dog in a submissive position (drop position) if it has been aggressive to other dogs or looks like it may do so (eye-balling another dog). Standing over your dog and firmly holding it's jowls and growling out "NOOOOOOOOOOO" after it has done something very bad also tells it plainly, without hurting it that it has displeased the boss.

Finally let your dog finish the episode/incident/session on a positive note. Whether it has been good or bad, get it to do something that it knows will please you and then reward it. Firm and fair earns your dog's respect and obedience without fear.

Dog psychology can be very interesting and is worth studying up on. To get the best out of your dog you should know what goes on behind those big sad eyes

 

[Alisha Mobley]

Originally posted by nelson


Your dog only wants to please you.

I do not agree w/ this statement. It is to my understanding a dogs nature is to survive, attempt to move up in the pecking order when if feels it can, avoid punishment when it can, get praise when it can. It will avoid punishment as long as the reward doesn't succeed the punishment, it will seek out praise as long as it's own reward isn't better. If the dog wants to run out into traffic to get a squirrel on the other side of the road it has to decide if the chase is better than the reward/praise you have to offer. For many dogs the chase is more rewarding. This is where corrections come into play. The dog will know the chase will result in a correction and to obey (not chase) will result in a reward. Both of these neg & pos results help to persuade the dog. Only rewarding will only give the dog one result to think about which in the right situation results in him turning down your reward. Dogs, imo, don't try to please. If they did then after the first time a pup was told not to soil the carpet your house training would be over. Dogs ALWAYS follow the path of least resistence. This is how they would survive in the wild.

Last night I was outside w/ my 3 Boxers. My two females went inside w/ my husband for a moment while Tyson stayed out w/ me. A cat (very brave) walked up and sat down in our drive way like he/she lived there. Tyson took off after the cat, ran across the road and into a neighbors back yard where I found him jumping up on the leg of a wooden swing trying to get the cat. As soon as Tyson started to take off after the cat I firmly said "No". This did not phase him nor did the repeating his name and verbal corrections. Tyson was not trying to please me, wasn't interseted in what I thought or said. Tyson was having fun and that's all that mattered to him at the time. Just before the cat chase Tyson got another wild hair up his butt and took off after the crazy little poodle that's always loose. Again, he knows he's not allowed to leave the yard but that didn't stop him. He was not pleasing me at all last night and wasn't trying to.:mad:

The training method I chose to use w/ my 3 does involve negative reinforcment. I do train w/ prong collars and feel they are very effective as long as the intention of thier use is to only work towards not using them at all. My 3 have been trained on and off leash. Very seldom are they put on leash any more and normally are very well behaved. Normally (I'm using normally because of Tyson's episodes last night) they obey commands very well on and off leash and stay in the yard. I've been training them for quite a while now and 99% of the time see excellent results from a verbal correction. Now, as how I handled Tyson last night...After he chased the cat I found him in the neighbors yard as mentioned above. I firmly said "Tyson let's go" and he promptly turned and ran home. He received no correction because he did as I asked. I couldn't correct him for not obeying "No" in the beginning because my 2 second time limit was up and I had already changed the command (let's go). I did the exact same thing when he chased the poodle. It was the same situation so I had to act in the same manner. All in all Tyson was a bit of a pest last night but other than the verbal corrections he ignored, he was only praised. I may never be able to break Tyson's (and Pru's for that matter) habbit of chasing another running animal. They have very strong prey drives but for the most part they listen when I see them getting ready to take off after something. For the times they don't listen all I can do is praise them when they come home and avoid the situations. I keep an eye out for cats, loose dogs, birds (yes, my guys try to catch birds), etc. When I see something that might catch their eye I place them in a down. It works and gets in practice downs. I try to avoid all negative reinforcment but feel sometimes it is needed to get my dogs at the level of obedience I'm shooting for.

 

[Alisha Mobley]

Originally posted by nelson

Finally let your dog finish the episode/incident/session on a positive note. Whether it has been good or bad, get it to do something that it knows will please you and then reward it. Firm and fair earns your dog's respect and obedience without fear.

This is very important advice. Keep this in mind at all times and you will raise a happy and obedient dog. Finishing the training session on a positve note will build the dogs confidence, firm will keep your dog from leading you and fair...well, it's only fair.

 

[Alisha Mobley]

Originally posted by Alisha Mobley

Dogs ALWAYS follow the path of least resistence.

I wanted to modify my statement to say...Dogs ALWAYS follow the path of least resistence unless trained to do other wise. This is learned in agility training. The dog will try to run around the jumps ,go under the tire jump, walk beside the weave poles instead of weaving etc, it must be trained, with patience I might add, to get them to go against their instincts and better judgement.

 

[nelson]

I'll concede the point partially on "your dog only wants to please you" and modify it to "your dog only wants to please you and itself (when it can)".

Your episode with Tyson and the cat is a perfect example of the issue at hand. Tyson is driven by instincts to chase (as most dogs are) but also as a subordinate to you he should obey your commands and will. Instincts are very powerful in dogs and overcoming and controlling them through training and obedience is a difficult task. By the time Tyson took off after his "prey" it was way too late to do anything about, no matter how much you say "NO" . What he has to realize that at the point of eyeing the cat that to chase it down was a bad thing to do.

So you catch him, put him into a drop, stand over him grab his jowls, stare him right in the face and growl "NOOOOOOOOOOOO, BAD DOG!!!" and shake his head a bit to he the message across. Drag him away and if you can straight away present him with the same "something to chase" situation, but this time put him on lead keep a firm hold of his collar, sit him down, and as he his eye-balling his target, firm "NO" - may need to say this a few times. If he is not making a move to chase, take a short grip on the lead, release the collar, and continue with "NO", "AH!" and such sounds. If still ok, play out the lead a little and continue. If he makes any move to chase, correct him sit him down, and start again. Once he can do it without making a move, call him (away from the target) and praise him lots. Take him right away from the situation and reward him with a treat or play or whatever.

Repeat this every time the situation presents itself and you can see he has more interest in the "prey" than you. If he is not on lead you need to be very quick to grab him and go through the routine. Eventually he will realize that chasing a cat/dog whatever is not pleasing you because he has to go through discipline for chasing or even eye-balling it. Ignoring and not chasing the "prey" pleases you because he gets a reward for not doing the action.

It's a case of behaviour modification and replacing the dog's instinct to do one thing with something else. To the dog chasing is not a "bad" thing, but you have to make the dog aware that it is and replace it with another behaviour that it can be rewarded with. This is not an easy thing to do, as you quite rightly point out in how a dog will take the path of least resistance (eg agility training)

As Boxer owners we can have a much tougher time because our dear little friends think for themselves a lot and are very good at "testing" their owners. I suppose that's one of the traits that endear us to them

 

[nelson]

I just wanted to also make the distinction between "punishment" and "discipline".

My understanding of "punishment" is physical, mental or emotional abuse of a dog. Be it hitting, use of painful restraints or devices, depravation (food, company etc), continued verbal or physical abuse. Punishment controls by fear not respect.

Discipline of a dog is using techniques that a dog understands when it's pack leader (as another dog) would do when asserting it's dominance. The human equivalent would be:
Tone of voice, growling, short sharp sounds "NO", AH!".
Getting the dog into a submissive position, drop or on it's back, and standing over it, holding it's jowls or snout.
Body language - making yourself appear bigger and more intimidating and walking "aggressively" towards it.

This last one is very effective. My last male, Brutus never responded well to voice discipline when he was bad, but all I had to do was puff out my chest and raise my shoulders up and forward to make me bigger, and walk stiffly and aggressively towards him with a scowl on my face and he would immediately go submissive.

Dogs don't understand punishment. It is outside of their frame of reference. We cannot use human methods in a dog psychology and get correct results without creating things like fear and behavioural problems.

 

[Brutus and Amaya's Mom]

I personally use a prong collar with Brutus. I very much agree that those with an easy dog have no idea what some dogs can be like. Brutus is naturally very confident and dominant. WE spent a LOT of time working on pack order and convincing Brutus why he had to listen.

We began using a prong after our 3rd training class (7 week classes- not sessions). He knew what sit meant but didn't always feel he had to sit on command. This is where the prong comes in. A prong also works wonders on walks as he is 75 lbs with a strong prey drive. Like Alisha said "the chase is more rewarding than pleasing mama." A prong allows me to keep him in control when a rabbit darts by.

I do not use a prong with Amaya. She is a very submissive/passive dog. She never challenges authority, never bit us, rarely chewed on things etc. My trainer often uses us as an example...If we had Amaya first and then got Brutus we would have had a bad time. I'm convinced we would have believed Brutus was possessed by the devil compared to sweet Amaya.

I think prongs have a place for certian dogs and can be very helpful when used properly under the care of a knowledgeable trainer.

 

[JulieM]

It will avoid punishment as long as the reward doesn't succeed the punishment, it will seek out praise as long as it's own reward isn't better.

Which is why so many people fail at non-punishment training - they do not find ways to be more rewarding that *whatever behavior*.

This is where corrections come into play. The dog will know the chase will result in a correction and to obey (not chase) will result in a reward.

Or, in non-punishment training, the dog will know the chase will result in no reward (and end of free time, most likely).

Only rewarding will only give the dog one result to think about which in the right situation results in him turning down your reward.

I have to disagree with this. Only rewarding (not punishing) keeps the dog busy trying to figure out what it has to do to get you to give it a reward. There are many things the dog can do that might result in a reward - one of the joys of clicker-training (non-punishment) is to see your dog *think* about what you're trying to teach it, or to offer up a whole smorgasbord of behaviors until it finds the one you're looking for.

Tyson took off after the cat, ran across the road and into a neighbors back yard where I found him jumping up on the leg of a wooden swing trying to get the cat. As soon as Tyson started to take off after the cat I firmly said "No". This did not phase him nor did the repeating his name and verbal corrections.

I'd think in this situation giving him another command would work better....as I've said before, I'm not a fan of "No" for several reasons, but if Tyson was realiable on a recall perhaps that would have been the thing do.

The training method I chose to use w/ my 3 does involve negative reinforcment.

I use negative reinforcement, in my training, too - the removal of something undesirable due to the behavior (to use Morgan Spector's example, if you are thirsty and drink water, the act of drinking water to slake thirst is negatively reinforced because the thirst goes away). What you're talking about, with prong collars, is positive punishment - the addition of something undesirable (the leash pop) due the behavior.

In training terms, positive and negative do not mean "good" and "bad" - they mean to add something (positive) or to take away something (negative). Reinforcements are often abbreviated as +R (positive reinforcement) and -R (negative reinforcement), which makes it easier for me to remember which is which; + is addition, - is subtraction.

I try to avoid all negative reinforcment [positive punishment] but feel sometimes it is needed to get my dogs at the level of obedience I'm shooting for.

Alisha, I'd be very interested in the results you'd get with clicker training. I know many people who are active in upper level Competitive Obedience who have never needed to physically correct their dogs. These same people who are able to control their intact males around females in season - *not* an easy task by any stretch of the imagination!

My understanding of "punishment" is physical, mental or emotional abuse of a dog. Be it hitting, use of painful restraints or devices, depravation (food, company etc), continued verbal or physical abuse. Punishment controls by fear not respect.

In most circles, that's probably true. In Operant Condition (clicker training), punishment simply means "reducing the occurrence of the behavior."

Discipline of a dog is using techniques that a dog understands when it's pack leader (as another dog) would do when asserting it's dominance. The human equivalent would be:
Tone of voice, growling, short sharp sounds "NO", AH!".
Getting the dog into a submissive position, drop or on it's back, and standing over it, holding it's jowls or snout.
Body language - making yourself appear bigger and more intimidating and walking "aggressively" towards it.

I don't suggest the last two - they are very good ways to get bitten!