On Monday October 6 at 7pm EST the chat topic is about clicker training with JulieM 
http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/chat.php
Olly
http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/chat.php
Olly
October 6, 7pm EST: clicker training
- Thread starter Boxerworld
- Start date
- Status
Thanks to Julie who replied to all the questions in real time!
Here's the chat log. Like for the last time, there is a one hour chat about the main topic and then it's chit chat
Mon Oct 6 19:05:39 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Ok. What about.... who invented clicker training, Julie?
Mon Oct 6 19:05:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Who invented it?
Mon Oct 6 19:06:02 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes
Mon Oct 6 19:06:02 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:I heard it was first used for dolphin training is that right?
Mon Oct 6 19:06:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Well, Karen Pryor is largely credited with the companion animal movement
Mon Oct 6 19:06:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, it was used for dolphins
Mon Oct 6 19:06:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can't put a choke chain on a dolphin!
Mon Oct 6 19:06:56 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:07:10 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:I'm sure they would have if they could
Mon Oct 6 19:07:16 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:back then
Mon Oct 6 19:07:20 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Right Who started it with dogs?
Mon Oct 6 19:07:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Marion and Keller Breland were involved in positive reinforcement training many years ago
Mon Oct 6 19:07:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:After Keller died, Marion married Bill Bailey, and between the three of them they have trained numerous species for various purposes
Mon Oct 6 19:08:12 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:From chickens at fairs to dolphins and dogs for the armed forces
Mon Oct 6 19:08:40 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so, if I got my basics right, the clicker is actually a method of "delayed reinforcement"?
Mon Oct 6 19:08:47 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I would really say Karen Pryor, though, was responsible for bringing clicker training to the attention of the masses
Mon Oct 6 19:08:53 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:sorry, "delayed reward"
Mon Oct 6 19:09:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, you could probably say delayed reward. It depends on what you're doing - sometimes the delay is just a fraction of a second.
Mon Oct 6 19:09:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But the click always comes first!
Mon Oct 6 19:09:50 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:right, but the click itself is not interpreted as a reward, but rather lets the dog know that the reward is coming ?
Mon Oct 6 19:10:02 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Not to say that you can't treat without clicking, but you never click without treating
Mon Oct 6 19:10:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Right - the click is a marker, it says "that's exactly what I want and now you get a reward"
Mon Oct 6 19:10:54 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:so in clicking you never wean off treats?
Mon Oct 6 19:11:11 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, you absolutely wean off treats.
Mon Oct 6 19:11:18 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You also wean off the clicker.
Mon Oct 6 19:11:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You never stop "rewarding"
Mon Oct 6 19:11:48 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But the reward can be a pat, or verbal praise, or a romp in the park
Mon Oct 6 19:11:55 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so I have a specific question, something we've run to when training
Mon Oct 6 19:11:56 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:rewarding= effection,
Mon Oct 6 19:12:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Rewarding = anything the dog enjoyes
Mon Oct 6 19:13:09 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:I'm trying to teach Laika to carry something in her mouth (like a dumbell) and I'm starting at having her hold it, but when I click, she drops it in anticipation of the reward
Mon Oct 6 19:13:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That's fine - click ends the behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:13:40 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Try delaying the click for a tiny bit
Mon Oct 6 19:13:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And the increasing the time between when you give her the item to hold and the click
Mon Oct 6 19:14:12 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:ah.... ok
Mon Oct 6 19:14:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(That should be "then increasing the time")
Mon Oct 6 19:14:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Just to back up one second, because I'm anal about things
Mon Oct 6 19:14:42 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so it's fine when I'm just having her learn to take it in her mouth, as soon as she takes it and I click, it's ok for her to drop it
Mon Oct 6 19:15:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:A reward - a reinforcement - is anything that will increase the likelihood of a behavior recurring
Mon Oct 6 19:15:24 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Does the "rewarding" have to be always the same? If you "give" less for some commands, wouldn't the dog guess he will get less?
Mon Oct 6 19:15:27 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes - once you click, she's free to do whatever she feels like doing
Mon Oct 6 19:15:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Until you ask her to do something else
Mon Oct 6 19:15:46 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:got it
Mon Oct 6 19:16:32 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:thanks
Mon Oct 6 19:16:34 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Well, the dog always has a choice. Your job as a trainer is to make what you want the dog to do more rewarding than what the dog wants to do
Mon Oct 6 19:16:40 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hope it helps!!
Mon Oct 6 19:17:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you use the same reward for the same behavior every single time, the dog might decide that the behavior is no longer more rewarding than whatever else
Mon Oct 6 19:18:05 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But once the behavior is well and thoroughly taught, you can decrease the value of the reward, because the response is basically automatic
Mon Oct 6 19:18:22 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:how long does it usually take you to "charge" a clicker... meaning how many times do you click/reward at the very beginning to put meaning into the clicker?
Mon Oct 6 19:18:35 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:big rewards for new command?
Mon Oct 6 19:19:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The dog has a choice, but after a certain point it's almost like the dog goes on autopilot - the time between cue and response is so small the dog doesn't think about the choice
Mon Oct 6 19:19:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Charging the clicker varies - for my dogs it took an average of about five clicks Some dogs are afraid of the clicker, so it takes longer for them.
Mon Oct 6 19:19:49 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, "high value" rewards for a new command - especially one that is very "not-dog"
Mon Oct 6 19:19:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Like not chasing the squirrel
Mon Oct 6 19:20:18 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:How often do you train them with the clicker at the beginning?
Mon Oct 6 19:20:39 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It's good to have a big arsenal of rewards - food of different types (cheerios vs hot dogs vs liver), toys, activities, etc.
Mon Oct 6 19:20:40 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I would settle for not 'flipping out' if a cat is withing five miles
Mon Oct 6 19:21:06 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:How often you train depends on where you are and where you want to go.
Mon Oct 6 19:21:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Short sessions are the general rule of thumb
Mon Oct 6 19:21:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So you can often do several a day
Mon Oct 6 19:21:36 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I have never worked on the 'cat thing'
Mon Oct 6 19:21:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL - not flipping out about the cat would probably be more along the lines of counter-conditioning
Mon Oct 6 19:21:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hard to do with cats just wandering around
Mon Oct 6 19:22:05 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:LOL
Mon Oct 6 19:22:06 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:When you ask him/her to sit (when it knows the command very well) - if it doesn't sit right away do you wait patiently until it does or do you "remind" them how to??
Mon Oct 6 19:22:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But basically you start shovelling food at them the moment they see the cat
Mon Oct 6 19:22:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:and at some magic moment they'll stop flipping out and look at you
Mon Oct 6 19:22:51 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That's when you jackpot (give a big handful of treats)
Mon Oct 6 19:23:02 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And the next time, it will probably be a shorter amount of time before they look at you
Mon Oct 6 19:23:08 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:wow.......never thought of that......to be honest i just ignore them
Mon Oct 6 19:23:10 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And so on and so on and so on
Mon Oct 6 19:23:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Ignoring works for behaviors that are not self-reinforcing - it's called Extinction in OC terms - barking generally is not easy to extinguish
Mon Oct 6 19:24:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There are two schools of thought about what to do if the dog doesn't follow a cue
Mon Oct 6 19:24:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(Probably more than two)
Mon Oct 6 19:24:21 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:The most important with clicker training is the sound, right? Then why can't we get the same results with just our voice?
Mon Oct 6 19:24:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One says the dog does not really know the command well, or has not generalized it to different situations, distractions, etc.
Mon Oct 6 19:24:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That's probably a little true with any school of thought, really
Mon Oct 6 19:24:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So the first school says, go back and retrain that cue
Mon Oct 6 19:25:20 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The other school of thought uses what is called a "no reward marker" or NRM - like "oops!" or "too bad!"
Mon Oct 6 19:25:28 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can then ask for the cue again
Mon Oct 6 19:25:38 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or you can show the dog what it missed by not following the cue
Mon Oct 6 19:25:52 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:do you ask right away or wait a few minutes??
Mon Oct 6 19:26:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(One woman wrote about asking for a cue, the dog didn't do it, and she whipped out a cheeseburger and took a big bite of it!)
Mon Oct 6 19:26:25 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:LOL good example
Mon Oct 6 19:26:28 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:nice
Mon Oct 6 19:26:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:We use a clicker because it is a sharp, precise, and consistent sound - our voice is not as precise, and the sound can vary
Mon Oct 6 19:26:59 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you give the NRM, you can ask again right away.
Mon Oct 6 19:27:11 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If the dog doesn't follow the cue after a few tries, though, I would stop askin
Mon Oct 6 19:27:33 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Otherwise you'll inadvertently teach that you don't really "mean it" until the 3rd or 4th or whatever time
Mon Oct 6 19:27:34 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:clicker is also immediate; where as your voice could be delayed
Mon Oct 6 19:27:59 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:have you found that clicker trained dogs respond better than "verbally" trained dogs??
Mon Oct 6 19:28:01 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Right, timing is very important in training (clicker or choker, actually)
Mon Oct 6 19:28:20 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Not necessarily - a lot depends on the skill of the trainer.
Mon Oct 6 19:28:41 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so, does a NRM equal a "correction" or is it not considered that way?
Mon Oct 6 19:28:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There's a neverending debate about that :0
Mon Oct 6 19:29:10 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It depends, ultimately, on how the dog interprets the NRM
Mon Oct 6 19:29:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The cheeseburger might be considered negative reinforcement
Mon Oct 6 19:29:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:which in OC terms is taking away (negative) something
Mon Oct 6 19:30:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:in order to have the behavior recur in the future (reinforcement)
Mon Oct 6 19:30:20 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:sorry Julie but I have a sudden mind block OC?
Mon Oct 6 19:30:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But if the dog didn't know the cheeseburger was there, are you really taking it away?
Mon Oct 6 19:30:27 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Operant Conditioning
Mon Oct 6 19:30:36 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:right
Mon Oct 6 19:30:38 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Is it true clicker training should only be used to teach commands that are new to the dog, meaning you would still have to use another training method later?
Mon Oct 6 19:30:39 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The theory behind behavior modification
Mon Oct 6 19:31:48 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:On the other hand, if the dog found the NRM to be aversive (not desirable), it could fall into the category of a correction
Mon Oct 6 19:31:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Olly, no, not at all
Mon Oct 6 19:32:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Clicker training can be used to fine-tune behaviors that were taught with other methods
Mon Oct 6 19:32:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or to re-teach them in a different way
Mon Oct 6 19:32:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or for new behaviors
Mon Oct 6 19:32:34 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:Q - I would like to train my dog to roll over, but he needs to be assisted what is the best way to do this - muscle him over
Mon Oct 6 19:32:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But you do not need another training method ("technique") later on
Mon Oct 6 19:33:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can train anything to any level with the clicker - it's all dependent on your knowledge and skill as a trainer
Mon Oct 6 19:33:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:To teach a roll over - there are different methods
Mon Oct 6 19:33:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One is positioning, when you physically put the dog into position
Mon Oct 6 19:34:08 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:ok
Mon Oct 6 19:34:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One is luring, where you would put the dog in a down, then with a treat at it's nose have it roll over
Mon Oct 6 19:34:51 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One is shaping, where you break the behavior down into teeny tiny steps and click/ treat for each little step
Mon Oct 6 19:35:12 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So, the dog is in a down, you'd c/t (click/treat) for looking in the direction you want it to roll
Mon Oct 6 19:35:20 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:then c/t for turning the nose that way
Mon Oct 6 19:35:25 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:then c/t for turning the head, etc.
Mon Oct 6 19:35:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Shaping sometimes takes longer in the beginning, but often leads to stronger behavior because there was not 'crutch' like a treat or your hands
Mon Oct 6 19:36:33 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:I will try the clicking at every step - I've tried the muscle him over - but it's not a pleasent experience for either one of us
Mon Oct 6 19:36:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, I wouldn't think it is.
Mon Oct 6 19:36:53 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:If you have a dog that doesn't hear well, would just seeing the clicker work or do you need something like a light?
Mon Oct 6 19:37:08 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:For sitting it's not as big of a deal, but rolling over is putting the dog in a very vulnerable position
Mon Oct 6 19:37:18 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Probably much better if it's the dog's idea to be there :D
Mon Oct 6 19:37:48 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:That was along the lines of what I was thinking Olly
Mon Oct 6 19:38:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:A light would probably work better for a hearing impaired dog, if it can't hear the click clearly then the behavior won't be marked at the precise instant
Mon Oct 6 19:38:24 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:so with older dogs you switch from clicker?
Mon Oct 6 19:38:39 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If they aren't hearing the click
Mon Oct 6 19:39:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Usually you can tell when a dog hears a clicker, once it's been charged - they'll react in some way (mine start drooling :p)
Mon Oct 6 19:39:18 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:39:32 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Do you train one on one or do you train multiple dogs at once??
Mon Oct 6 19:39:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can do either - I'd certainly start out one on one until you have some basic commands down
Mon Oct 6 19:39:53 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:how easily do dogs, say of 4 or 5, adapt to the introduction of the clicker into their training?
Mon Oct 6 19:39:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Sit, stay, down, stay
Mon Oct 6 19:40:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you can keep the dogs separate but in view, there is some evidence that dogs learn by watching other dogs training
Mon Oct 6 19:40:40 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:how would you teach stay with the clicker?? Do you put them in a down, click... wait a few seconds and then say "come" and click when they get up??
Mon Oct 6 19:40:42 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Most dogs adapt well to a clicker at any age
Mon Oct 6 19:41:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Some of mine were 3-4 when I first started clicking and they picked up on it right away
Mon Oct 6 19:41:21 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:I've tried training both of mine together but right now it's overwhelming for all of us...
Mon Oct 6 19:41:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You wouldn't say come, but you'd put them in a down, wait, click.
Mon Oct 6 19:41:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:From there they can get up or not, as they please.
Mon Oct 6 19:41:56 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:What do you call a "clicker" training by gesture/signs/light when you have deaf dogs?
Mon Oct 6 19:42:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you want them to get up, you can toss the treat behind them and then recue the down./stay
Mon Oct 6 19:42:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Click ends the behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:42:22 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:what ever you want, the dog can't hear what you call it anyway :p
Mon Oct 6 19:42:22 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:"flasher" training
Mon Oct 6 19:42:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL!
Mon Oct 6 19:42:36 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:42:42 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg: mat
Mon Oct 6 19:42:46 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:flasher training sounds good
Mon Oct 6 19:42:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Technically, positive reinforcement training
Mon Oct 6 19:42:56 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:42:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Although that term gets misused quite a bit
Mon Oct 6 19:43:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There's also "purely positive" training
Mon Oct 6 19:44:25 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:What do you call "purely positive" training?
Mon Oct 6 19:44:37 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:o.k. 1st stupid ?? for the day...... what's the biggest singular advantage of the click / treat method than the praise / treat way of training?
Mon Oct 6 19:44:55 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:which is what we're doing at the moment
Mon Oct 6 19:44:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There are no stupid questions
Mon Oct 6 19:45:09 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:Oh yes there is......I have a heap of them :p
Mon Oct 6 19:45:33 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:45:34 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The biggest singular advantage of clicker vs. voice is the precision of the clicker in marking the behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:45:47 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Purely positive is another term for clicker-type training, with or without the clicker
Mon Oct 6 19:45:51 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:so it has everything to do with timing
Mon Oct 6 19:45:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Basically, it means "no correction"
Mon Oct 6 19:46:28 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:would ignoring be included in correction?
Mon Oct 6 19:46:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, timing is the key!
Mon Oct 6 19:46:57 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:can a clicker be used to help extinguish a behavior?
Mon Oct 6 19:47:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, ignoring would be used to extinguish a behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:47:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg::D
Mon Oct 6 19:47:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(Ooops, shoulda been )
Mon Oct 6 19:47:27 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:like say, for example, not eating through a frozen bag of oma's pride rabbit mix?
Mon Oct 6 19:47:35 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:48:07 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I'd suggest a higher thawing shelf
Mon Oct 6 19:48:08 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, you can't extinguish a behavior by reinforcing int
Mon Oct 6 19:48:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:"If a behavior is not reinforced it will eventually disappear"
Mon Oct 6 19:48:42 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so, with a clicker you would rather do a replacement behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:48:42 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:makes sense
Mon Oct 6 19:48:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(From Click for Joy! by Melissa Alexander)
Mon Oct 6 19:49:06 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, because the act of eating the food is reinforcing in and of itself
Mon Oct 6 19:49:12 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:because I can't ignore her chewing through the plastic
Mon Oct 6 19:49:21 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:right, that's what I was gonna say
Mon Oct 6 19:49:36 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:An alternate and contradictory behavior is appropraite
Mon Oct 6 19:49:38 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Right
Mon Oct 6 19:50:04 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Now, the food could be the primary reinforcer (the reward) if she does the replacement behavior you want
Mon Oct 6 19:50:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Because you know it's a pretty high-value reinforcer
Mon Oct 6 19:50:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:OK, I misspoke a while back, when I talked about the cheeseburger being negative reinforcement.
Mon Oct 6 19:50:55 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:yeah, high enough she chewed through two layers of plastic and one of cardboard!
Mon Oct 6 19:51:32 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:I can see how clicker training works when you teach new things to your dog but what with aggressive dogs? How can you teach a dog not to attack with clicker training?
Mon Oct 6 19:51:58 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:once you begin clicker training, can you switch off? Or do you always have to have clicker & treats on hand?
Mon Oct 6 19:52:00 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:good question, like desensitizing a dog using a clicker
Mon Oct 6 19:52:02 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It would be negative punishment, to decrease the not-responding from occurring
Mon Oct 6 19:52:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Aggressive dogs are obviously going to take a lot more skill, patience and persistence!
Mon Oct 6 19:52:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It goes back to the counter-conditioning I talked about earlier
Mon Oct 6 19:53:07 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:with the cat stuff?
Mon Oct 6 19:53:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If it's people-aggressive, of course you'd see a behaviorist with successful experience in that area
Mon Oct 6 19:53:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, like the cat stuff
Mon Oct 6 19:53:25 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:cool
Mon Oct 6 19:53:36 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If it's dog aggressive, you might want to see a behaviorist anyway!
Mon Oct 6 19:53:46 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes, I was thinking about people aggressive.
Mon Oct 6 19:53:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But you can try shovelling treats at the dog whenever another dog comes into view
Mon Oct 6 19:54:31 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You could do the same thing for people aggression - it's just a very very risky situation and not something I would recommend anyone try without professional guidance
Mon Oct 6 19:54:42 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Ruling out medical problems, of course, is the first step!
Mon Oct 6 19:54:50 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:of course!
Mon Oct 6 19:55:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, Matt, you do not have to always have a clicker/treats on hand
Mon Oct 6 19:55:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Once the behavior is learned, you can "fade" them and only bring them out for new behaviors
Mon Oct 6 19:55:26 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:would you be able to use a clicker for dogs that are food aggressive??
Mon Oct 6 19:55:40 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:so for instance........If visitors pop in & we put the dogs in a sit, we don't necessarily have to click treat
Mon Oct 6 19:56:05 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:put as long as you use it each time you're training it'll work?
Mon Oct 6 19:56:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Food aggression can be counter-conditioned, yes
Mon Oct 6 19:57:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If the dog is guarding food from you, you can try feeding it by dropping a small bit of food at a time into the bowl
Mon Oct 6 19:57:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That lets the dog associate Good Things with you approaching the food bowl
Mon Oct 6 19:57:31 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or have the regular food in the bowl, you approach and throw something extra-yummy in
Mon Oct 6 19:57:45 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Mason is perfectly fine with the "human" members of the famiily touching him, it's when Riley or one of our cats, etc walks by. He starts growling at them.
Mon Oct 6 19:58:02 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:that is Phoebe
Mon Oct 6 19:58:20 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:no fur-being can look at her food
Mon Oct 6 19:58:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Matt -right
Mon Oct 6 19:58:37 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:thanks
Mon Oct 6 19:58:50 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Amanda - sounds just like Mason!!
Mon Oct 6 19:59:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So you could have extra-yummies on hand, and drop them into the food bowl when the fur-beings come near
Mon Oct 6 19:59:26 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I feed her in her crate, and the others have learned that is 'her' space
Mon Oct 6 19:59:38 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Ideally before the dog starts growling
Mon Oct 6 20:00:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So she's teaching them
Mon Oct 6 20:00:24 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Are some dog breeds more receptive to clicker training than other breeds?
Mon Oct 6 20:00:28 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:She seems to need that space
Mon Oct 6 20:00:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And she should have her own space - and really, if it's just growling and the other dogs are respecting that, well, that's how it's supposed to work
Mon Oct 6 20:01:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I don't think you can generalize across breeds - that's like saying Boxers are hard to train!
Mon Oct 6 20:01:14 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Of course, I haven't tried to train different breeds!
Mon Oct 6 20:01:51 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes, but some breeds are better at doing some jobs than other breeds
Mon Oct 6 20:02:05 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:this may come out sounding weird... Riley was here longer which by going by that, he should be superior (higher in rank) to Mason, however he does back off when Mason growls at him. Does this mean that Riley is accepting that Mason is now superior
Mon Oct 6 20:02:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes,
Mon Oct 6 20:02:33 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:at least when the food issue arises
Mon Oct 6 20:02:35 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:Mason is still a pup also
Mon Oct 6 20:02:40 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:In fact, Melissa Alexander makes the point that Bloodhounds, for instance, are hard -wired for sniffing - so you're constantly fighting that (very rewarding) instinct
Mon Oct 6 20:03:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So maybe it's not that different breeds are more or less receptive to the clicker, but that you have to train differently for different breeds
Mon Oct 6 20:03:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Mason may still have some "puppy license," or it may be that Mason is taking the role of top dog
Mon Oct 6 20:03:47 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:yes, that's true, but it's just weird watching how Riley seems to say "ok, no problem" when Mason says back off.
Mon Oct 6 20:04:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Length of time in the house doesn't matter a lot of the time
Mon Oct 6 20:05:05 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Age doesn't always matter, either
Mon Oct 6 20:05:25 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Julie, do you recommend a clicker brand? What are the best you know, and how long do they usually last?
Mon Oct 6 20:05:31 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The dogs have their own heirarchies that in large groups usually aren't even close to what we'd expect
Mon Oct 6 20:05:59 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hum. Well, honestly I don't know what different brands of clickers there are!
Mon Oct 6 20:06:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I've got some from Dogwise, some from Karen Pryor (Sunshine Books), and one from a local trainer.
Mon Oct 6 20:06:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:They're all basically the same as far as I can telly
Mon Oct 6 20:07:06 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Ok! And when you own different dogs, is it better to have different clickers with different sounds so they get individual commands?
Mon Oct 6 20:07:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There are different styles - the ones with a tab on them are popular with people who like to always have a clicker handy, because you can put an elastic loop on it and keep it around your wrist
Mon Oct 6 20:07:21 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Julie - one last question about Mason... ... You said he might still have some "puppy license" how long does this typically last or does it vary from dog to dog. Mason will be 5 months old on Wed.
Mon Oct 6 20:07:26 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(They even make clickers with the loops)
Mon Oct 6 20:07:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, you don't need different clickers for different dogs. That would be confusing if you were training them all at once!!
Mon Oct 6 20:08:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:They seem to figure out pretty quickly who is getting clicked for what
Mon Oct 6 20:08:22 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:but if you were training multiple dogs wouldn't your timing become a little off?
Mon Oct 6 20:08:43 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you want to give different cues, you can use their names before giving the cue
Mon Oct 6 20:09:33 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Puppy license varies, some say it expires at 4 months but in my experience it lasts longer than that, often up to about 9 months or so when sexual maturity begins
Mon Oct 6 20:09:53 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:Ali still has puppy license..........she's 5.......
Mon Oct 6 20:10:08 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you're training multiple dogs at once, you have to decide ahead of time what your criteria is
Mon Oct 6 20:10:10 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:5 years that it!!
Mon Oct 6 20:10:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Do you want all the dogs to sit in sync?
Mon Oct 6 20:10:26 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Mason is getting neutered in Nov, does that normally effect it??
Mon Oct 6 20:10:52 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:well they both do now when I'm training them both, so yes
Mon Oct 6 20:10:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If so, you'd click when whatever dogs meet your criteria and reward them, and don't reward the others
Mon Oct 6 20:11:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You don't want to wait for the slowest dog - assuming you're looking for a quick sit
Mon Oct 6 20:11:51 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Just like when you're training a single dog for speed, you only reward those responses that fall within your time criteria
Mon Oct 6 20:11:52 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Personally, how do you reward your dogs when clicker training? With food mainly? If so, do you feed them less during their "lunch" time?
Mon Oct 6 20:12:12 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:yep.....gotcha
Mon Oct 6 20:12:49 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Neutering tends to make other males less aggressive toward the neutered dog, but it generally doesn't change the "attitude" of the neutered dog
Mon Oct 6 20:13:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I generally use food rewards, and if we're doing more than just a few casual things, yes, I decrease the amount I feed at regular meals
Mon Oct 6 20:13:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Don't want any fat pooches!!
Mon Oct 6 20:13:43 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:thank you Julie
Mon Oct 6 20:13:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You're very welcome, I hope it's been helpful!
Mon Oct 6 20:14:03 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:very!!
Mon Oct 6 20:14:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I will suggest www.clickersolutions.com for a ton of good information and articles!\
Mon Oct 6 20:14:17 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:It has Julie, I have a better understanding
Mon Oct 6 20:14:35 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes, thank you Julie
Mon Oct 6 20:14:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I am very happy to hear that!
Mon Oct 6 20:15:06 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:I hope we didn't keep you too long as I know you haven't had dinner yet. LOL
Mon Oct 6 20:15:19 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:ohh, what's for dinner?
Mon Oct 6 20:15:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL - actually, I had a bowl of popcorn before I logged on
Mon Oct 6 20:15:26 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 20:15:27 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:I will be bookmarking that website and hopefully getting a clicker soon, it sounds like it's more fun and interactive training.
Mon Oct 6 20:15:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hubby won't be home until after 9, he's having chicken and gnocchi
Mon Oct 6 20:15:46 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:Oh julie olly must get you a better dinner nextime
Mon Oct 6 20:15:52 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:The lucky man
Mon Oct 6 20:16:08 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:Oh homemade nocci?
Mon Oct 6 20:16:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It definitely is a fun way of training, and yes, very interactive and very flexible once you get the hang of it!
Mon Oct 6 20:16:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL - no, from a box!
Mon Oct 6 20:16:42 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Commercial box?
Mon Oct 6 20:16:43 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Homemade chicken, though - or at least, I'll put it in the pan myself!
Mon Oct 6 20:16:44 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:, I have not gotten the gist of Nocci
Mon Oct 6 20:17:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I personally don't like the taste of it, so he's lucky I cook it at all!!
Mon Oct 6 20:17:10 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:or atleast what don determines is the gist
Mon Oct 6 20:17:16 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:o.k......I'm off.....thanks Julie
Mon Oct 6 20:17:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, store-bought not even refrigerated
Mon Oct 6 20:17:47 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Gnocchi *and* dumplings?
Mon Oct 6 20:18:02 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:no tia and i eat the dumplings
Mon Oct 6 20:18:09 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:don hates dumplings
Mon Oct 6 20:18:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Gotcha!
Mon Oct 6 20:18:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I was going to say, pretty high-carb meal!
Mon Oct 6 20:18:29 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:LOL
Mon Oct 6 20:18:43 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:no we watch carbs, daughter is diabetic
Mon Oct 6 20:19:12 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:May i ask you a quick barf ?
Mon Oct 6 20:19:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Bummer
Mon Oct 6 20:19:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(That was supposed to be a frown!!)
Mon Oct 6 20:19:33 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Sure - ask away!
Mon Oct 6 20:19:44 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:(right click in the text area)
Mon Oct 6 20:20:22 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:sweet potatoes? do you peel them also
Mon Oct 6 20:20:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I'm trying to remember....
Mon Oct 6 20:21:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I think I've done both - fed with and without skin
Mon Oct 6 20:21:15 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I havent fed them yet
Mon Oct 6 20:21:28 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I've only heard the problem being with potatoes, not sweet potatoes
Mon Oct 6 20:21:42 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:but had one myself for lunch george ate half..........but left the skins
Mon Oct 6 20:21:48 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:When I fed them raw, I think I peeled them to get them mushed up better
Mon Oct 6 20:21:59 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:well this was steamed
Mon Oct 6 20:22:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:When I cooked them, I left the skins on
Mon Oct 6 20:22:14 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:and he demanded some
Mon Oct 6 20:22:15 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 20:22:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Then we had bright orange poo in the yard the next day!
Mon Oct 6 20:22:24 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:LOL
Mon Oct 6 20:22:25 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:OH
Mon Oct 6 20:22:45 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:orange poo well that would work with football colours
Mon Oct 6 20:22:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I may do it again for Halloween 8)
Here's the chat log. Like for the last time, there is a one hour chat about the main topic and then it's chit chat
Mon Oct 6 19:05:39 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Ok. What about.... who invented clicker training, Julie?
Mon Oct 6 19:05:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Who invented it?
Mon Oct 6 19:06:02 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes
Mon Oct 6 19:06:02 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:I heard it was first used for dolphin training is that right?
Mon Oct 6 19:06:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Well, Karen Pryor is largely credited with the companion animal movement
Mon Oct 6 19:06:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, it was used for dolphins
Mon Oct 6 19:06:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can't put a choke chain on a dolphin!
Mon Oct 6 19:06:56 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:07:10 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:I'm sure they would have if they could
Mon Oct 6 19:07:16 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:back then
Mon Oct 6 19:07:20 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Right
Who started it with dogs?Mon Oct 6 19:07:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Marion and Keller Breland were involved in positive reinforcement training many years ago
Mon Oct 6 19:07:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:After Keller died, Marion married Bill Bailey, and between the three of them they have trained numerous species for various purposes
Mon Oct 6 19:08:12 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:From chickens at fairs to dolphins and dogs for the armed forces
Mon Oct 6 19:08:40 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so, if I got my basics right, the clicker is actually a method of "delayed reinforcement"?
Mon Oct 6 19:08:47 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I would really say Karen Pryor, though, was responsible for bringing clicker training to the attention of the masses
Mon Oct 6 19:08:53 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:sorry, "delayed reward"
Mon Oct 6 19:09:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, you could probably say delayed reward. It depends on what you're doing - sometimes the delay is just a fraction of a second.
Mon Oct 6 19:09:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But the click always comes first!
Mon Oct 6 19:09:50 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:right, but the click itself is not interpreted as a reward, but rather lets the dog know that the reward is coming ?
Mon Oct 6 19:10:02 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Not to say that you can't treat without clicking, but you never click without treating
Mon Oct 6 19:10:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Right - the click is a marker, it says "that's exactly what I want and now you get a reward"
Mon Oct 6 19:10:54 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:so in clicking you never wean off treats?
Mon Oct 6 19:11:11 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, you absolutely wean off treats.
Mon Oct 6 19:11:18 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You also wean off the clicker.
Mon Oct 6 19:11:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You never stop "rewarding"
Mon Oct 6 19:11:48 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But the reward can be a pat, or verbal praise, or a romp in the park
Mon Oct 6 19:11:55 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so I have a specific question, something we've run to when training
Mon Oct 6 19:11:56 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:rewarding= effection,
Mon Oct 6 19:12:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Rewarding = anything the dog enjoyes
Mon Oct 6 19:13:09 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:I'm trying to teach Laika to carry something in her mouth (like a dumbell) and I'm starting at having her hold it, but when I click, she drops it in anticipation of the reward
Mon Oct 6 19:13:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That's fine - click ends the behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:13:40 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Try delaying the click for a tiny bit
Mon Oct 6 19:13:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And the increasing the time between when you give her the item to hold and the click
Mon Oct 6 19:14:12 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:ah.... ok
Mon Oct 6 19:14:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(That should be "then increasing the time")
Mon Oct 6 19:14:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Just to back up one second, because I'm anal about things
Mon Oct 6 19:14:42 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so it's fine when I'm just having her learn to take it in her mouth, as soon as she takes it and I click, it's ok for her to drop it
Mon Oct 6 19:15:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:A reward - a reinforcement - is anything that will increase the likelihood of a behavior recurring
Mon Oct 6 19:15:24 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Does the "rewarding" have to be always the same? If you "give" less for some commands, wouldn't the dog guess he will get less?
Mon Oct 6 19:15:27 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes - once you click, she's free to do whatever she feels like doing
Mon Oct 6 19:15:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Until you ask her to do something else
Mon Oct 6 19:15:46 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:got it
Mon Oct 6 19:16:32 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:thanks
Mon Oct 6 19:16:34 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Well, the dog always has a choice. Your job as a trainer is to make what you want the dog to do more rewarding than what the dog wants to do
Mon Oct 6 19:16:40 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hope it helps!!
Mon Oct 6 19:17:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you use the same reward for the same behavior every single time, the dog might decide that the behavior is no longer more rewarding than whatever else
Mon Oct 6 19:18:05 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But once the behavior is well and thoroughly taught, you can decrease the value of the reward, because the response is basically automatic
Mon Oct 6 19:18:22 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:how long does it usually take you to "charge" a clicker... meaning how many times do you click/reward at the very beginning to put meaning into the clicker?
Mon Oct 6 19:18:35 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:big rewards for new command?
Mon Oct 6 19:19:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The dog has a choice, but after a certain point it's almost like the dog goes on autopilot - the time between cue and response is so small the dog doesn't think about the choice
Mon Oct 6 19:19:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Charging the clicker varies - for my dogs it took an average of about five clicks
Some dogs are afraid of the clicker, so it takes longer for them.Mon Oct 6 19:19:49 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, "high value" rewards for a new command - especially one that is very "not-dog"
Mon Oct 6 19:19:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Like not chasing the squirrel
Mon Oct 6 19:20:18 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:How often do you train them with the clicker at the beginning?
Mon Oct 6 19:20:39 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It's good to have a big arsenal of rewards - food of different types (cheerios vs hot dogs vs liver), toys, activities, etc.
Mon Oct 6 19:20:40 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I would settle for not 'flipping out' if a cat is withing five miles
Mon Oct 6 19:21:06 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:How often you train depends on where you are and where you want to go.
Mon Oct 6 19:21:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Short sessions are the general rule of thumb
Mon Oct 6 19:21:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So you can often do several a day
Mon Oct 6 19:21:36 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I have never worked on the 'cat thing'
Mon Oct 6 19:21:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL - not flipping out about the cat would probably be more along the lines of counter-conditioning
Mon Oct 6 19:21:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hard to do with cats just wandering around
Mon Oct 6 19:22:05 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:LOL
Mon Oct 6 19:22:06 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:When you ask him/her to sit (when it knows the command very well) - if it doesn't sit right away do you wait patiently until it does or do you "remind" them how to??
Mon Oct 6 19:22:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But basically you start shovelling food at them the moment they see the cat
Mon Oct 6 19:22:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:and at some magic moment they'll stop flipping out and look at you
Mon Oct 6 19:22:51 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That's when you jackpot (give a big handful of treats)
Mon Oct 6 19:23:02 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And the next time, it will probably be a shorter amount of time before they look at you
Mon Oct 6 19:23:08 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:wow.......never thought of that......to be honest i just ignore them
Mon Oct 6 19:23:10 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And so on and so on and so on
Mon Oct 6 19:23:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Ignoring works for behaviors that are not self-reinforcing - it's called Extinction in OC terms - barking generally is not easy to extinguish
Mon Oct 6 19:24:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There are two schools of thought about what to do if the dog doesn't follow a cue
Mon Oct 6 19:24:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(Probably more than two)
Mon Oct 6 19:24:21 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:The most important with clicker training is the sound, right? Then why can't we get the same results with just our voice?
Mon Oct 6 19:24:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One says the dog does not really know the command well, or has not generalized it to different situations, distractions, etc.
Mon Oct 6 19:24:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That's probably a little true with any school of thought, really
Mon Oct 6 19:24:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So the first school says, go back and retrain that cue
Mon Oct 6 19:25:20 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The other school of thought uses what is called a "no reward marker" or NRM - like "oops!" or "too bad!"
Mon Oct 6 19:25:28 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can then ask for the cue again
Mon Oct 6 19:25:38 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or you can show the dog what it missed by not following the cue
Mon Oct 6 19:25:52 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:do you ask right away or wait a few minutes??
Mon Oct 6 19:26:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(One woman wrote about asking for a cue, the dog didn't do it, and she whipped out a cheeseburger and took a big bite of it!)
Mon Oct 6 19:26:25 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:LOL good example
Mon Oct 6 19:26:28 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:nice
Mon Oct 6 19:26:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:We use a clicker because it is a sharp, precise, and consistent sound - our voice is not as precise, and the sound can vary
Mon Oct 6 19:26:59 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you give the NRM, you can ask again right away.
Mon Oct 6 19:27:11 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If the dog doesn't follow the cue after a few tries, though, I would stop askin
Mon Oct 6 19:27:33 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Otherwise you'll inadvertently teach that you don't really "mean it" until the 3rd or 4th or whatever time
Mon Oct 6 19:27:34 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:clicker is also immediate; where as your voice could be delayed
Mon Oct 6 19:27:59 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:have you found that clicker trained dogs respond better than "verbally" trained dogs??
Mon Oct 6 19:28:01 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Right, timing is very important in training (clicker or choker, actually)
Mon Oct 6 19:28:20 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Not necessarily - a lot depends on the skill of the trainer.
Mon Oct 6 19:28:41 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so, does a NRM equal a "correction" or is it not considered that way?
Mon Oct 6 19:28:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There's a neverending debate about that :0
Mon Oct 6 19:29:10 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It depends, ultimately, on how the dog interprets the NRM
Mon Oct 6 19:29:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The cheeseburger might be considered negative reinforcement
Mon Oct 6 19:29:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:which in OC terms is taking away (negative) something
Mon Oct 6 19:30:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:in order to have the behavior recur in the future (reinforcement)
Mon Oct 6 19:30:20 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:sorry Julie but I have a sudden mind block OC?
Mon Oct 6 19:30:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But if the dog didn't know the cheeseburger was there, are you really taking it away?
Mon Oct 6 19:30:27 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Operant Conditioning
Mon Oct 6 19:30:36 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:right
Mon Oct 6 19:30:38 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Is it true clicker training should only be used to teach commands that are new to the dog, meaning you would still have to use another training method later?
Mon Oct 6 19:30:39 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The theory behind behavior modification
Mon Oct 6 19:31:48 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:On the other hand, if the dog found the NRM to be aversive (not desirable), it could fall into the category of a correction
Mon Oct 6 19:31:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Olly, no, not at all
Mon Oct 6 19:32:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Clicker training can be used to fine-tune behaviors that were taught with other methods
Mon Oct 6 19:32:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or to re-teach them in a different way
Mon Oct 6 19:32:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or for new behaviors
Mon Oct 6 19:32:34 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:Q - I would like to train my dog to roll over, but he needs to be assisted what is the best way to do this - muscle him over
Mon Oct 6 19:32:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But you do not need another training method ("technique") later on
Mon Oct 6 19:33:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can train anything to any level with the clicker - it's all dependent on your knowledge and skill as a trainer
Mon Oct 6 19:33:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:To teach a roll over - there are different methods
Mon Oct 6 19:33:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One is positioning, when you physically put the dog into position
Mon Oct 6 19:34:08 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:ok
Mon Oct 6 19:34:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One is luring, where you would put the dog in a down, then with a treat at it's nose have it roll over
Mon Oct 6 19:34:51 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:One is shaping, where you break the behavior down into teeny tiny steps and click/ treat for each little step
Mon Oct 6 19:35:12 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So, the dog is in a down, you'd c/t (click/treat) for looking in the direction you want it to roll
Mon Oct 6 19:35:20 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:then c/t for turning the nose that way
Mon Oct 6 19:35:25 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:then c/t for turning the head, etc.
Mon Oct 6 19:35:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Shaping sometimes takes longer in the beginning, but often leads to stronger behavior because there was not 'crutch' like a treat or your hands
Mon Oct 6 19:36:33 2003:boxer_booty [0/] Msg:I will try the clicking at every step - I've tried the muscle him over - but it's not a pleasent experience for either one of us
Mon Oct 6 19:36:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, I wouldn't think it is.
Mon Oct 6 19:36:53 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:If you have a dog that doesn't hear well, would just seeing the clicker work or do you need something like a light?
Mon Oct 6 19:37:08 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:For sitting it's not as big of a deal, but rolling over is putting the dog in a very vulnerable position
Mon Oct 6 19:37:18 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Probably much better if it's the dog's idea to be there :D
Mon Oct 6 19:37:48 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:That was along the lines of what I was thinking Olly
Mon Oct 6 19:38:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:A light would probably work better for a hearing impaired dog, if it can't hear the click clearly then the behavior won't be marked at the precise instant
Mon Oct 6 19:38:24 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:so with older dogs you switch from clicker?
Mon Oct 6 19:38:39 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If they aren't hearing the click
Mon Oct 6 19:39:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Usually you can tell when a dog hears a clicker, once it's been charged - they'll react in some way (mine start drooling :p)
Mon Oct 6 19:39:18 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:39:32 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Do you train one on one or do you train multiple dogs at once??
Mon Oct 6 19:39:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You can do either - I'd certainly start out one on one until you have some basic commands down
Mon Oct 6 19:39:53 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:how easily do dogs, say of 4 or 5, adapt to the introduction of the clicker into their training?
Mon Oct 6 19:39:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Sit, stay, down, stay
Mon Oct 6 19:40:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you can keep the dogs separate but in view, there is some evidence that dogs learn by watching other dogs training
Mon Oct 6 19:40:40 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:how would you teach stay with the clicker?? Do you put them in a down, click... wait a few seconds and then say "come" and click when they get up??
Mon Oct 6 19:40:42 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Most dogs adapt well to a clicker at any age
Mon Oct 6 19:41:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Some of mine were 3-4 when I first started clicking and they picked up on it right away
Mon Oct 6 19:41:21 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:I've tried training both of mine together but right now it's overwhelming for all of us...
Mon Oct 6 19:41:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You wouldn't say come, but you'd put them in a down, wait, click.
Mon Oct 6 19:41:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:From there they can get up or not, as they please.
Mon Oct 6 19:41:56 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:What do you call a "clicker" training by gesture/signs/light when you have deaf dogs?
Mon Oct 6 19:42:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you want them to get up, you can toss the treat behind them and then recue the down./stay
Mon Oct 6 19:42:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Click ends the behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:42:22 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:what ever you want, the dog can't hear what you call it anyway :p
Mon Oct 6 19:42:22 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:"flasher" training
Mon Oct 6 19:42:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL!
Mon Oct 6 19:42:36 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:42:42 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:
matMon Oct 6 19:42:46 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:flasher training sounds good
Mon Oct 6 19:42:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Technically, positive reinforcement training
Mon Oct 6 19:42:56 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:42:58 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Although that term gets misused quite a bit
Mon Oct 6 19:43:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There's also "purely positive" training
Mon Oct 6 19:44:25 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:What do you call "purely positive" training?
Mon Oct 6 19:44:37 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:o.k. 1st stupid ?? for the day...... what's the biggest singular advantage of the click / treat method than the praise / treat way of training?
Mon Oct 6 19:44:55 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:which is what we're doing at the moment
Mon Oct 6 19:44:57 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There are no stupid questions
Mon Oct 6 19:45:09 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:Oh yes there is......I have a heap of them :p
Mon Oct 6 19:45:33 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:45:34 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The biggest singular advantage of clicker vs. voice is the precision of the clicker in marking the behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:45:47 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Purely positive is another term for clicker-type training, with or without the clicker
Mon Oct 6 19:45:51 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:so it has everything to do with timing
Mon Oct 6 19:45:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Basically, it means "no correction"
Mon Oct 6 19:46:28 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:would ignoring be included in correction?
Mon Oct 6 19:46:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, timing is the key!
Mon Oct 6 19:46:57 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:can a clicker be used to help extinguish a behavior?
Mon Oct 6 19:47:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, ignoring would be used to extinguish a behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:47:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg::D
Mon Oct 6 19:47:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(Ooops, shoulda been
)Mon Oct 6 19:47:27 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:like say, for example, not eating through a frozen bag of oma's pride rabbit mix?
Mon Oct 6 19:47:35 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 19:48:07 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I'd suggest a higher thawing shelf
Mon Oct 6 19:48:08 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, you can't extinguish a behavior by reinforcing int
Mon Oct 6 19:48:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:"If a behavior is not reinforced it will eventually disappear"
Mon Oct 6 19:48:42 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:so, with a clicker you would rather do a replacement behavior
Mon Oct 6 19:48:42 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:makes sense
Mon Oct 6 19:48:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(From Click for Joy! by Melissa Alexander)
Mon Oct 6 19:49:06 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, because the act of eating the food is reinforcing in and of itself
Mon Oct 6 19:49:12 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:because I can't ignore her chewing through the plastic
Mon Oct 6 19:49:21 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:right, that's what I was gonna say
Mon Oct 6 19:49:36 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:An alternate and contradictory behavior is appropraite
Mon Oct 6 19:49:38 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Right
Mon Oct 6 19:50:04 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Now, the food could be the primary reinforcer (the reward) if she does the replacement behavior you want
Mon Oct 6 19:50:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Because you know it's a pretty high-value reinforcer
Mon Oct 6 19:50:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:OK, I misspoke a while back, when I talked about the cheeseburger being negative reinforcement.
Mon Oct 6 19:50:55 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:yeah, high enough she chewed through two layers of plastic and one of cardboard!
Mon Oct 6 19:51:32 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:I can see how clicker training works when you teach new things to your dog but what with aggressive dogs? How can you teach a dog not to attack with clicker training?
Mon Oct 6 19:51:58 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:once you begin clicker training, can you switch off? Or do you always have to have clicker & treats on hand?
Mon Oct 6 19:52:00 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:good question, like desensitizing a dog using a clicker
Mon Oct 6 19:52:02 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It would be negative punishment, to decrease the not-responding from occurring
Mon Oct 6 19:52:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Aggressive dogs are obviously going to take a lot more skill, patience and persistence!
Mon Oct 6 19:52:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It goes back to the counter-conditioning I talked about earlier
Mon Oct 6 19:53:07 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:with the cat stuff?
Mon Oct 6 19:53:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If it's people-aggressive, of course you'd see a behaviorist with successful experience in that area
Mon Oct 6 19:53:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, like the cat stuff
Mon Oct 6 19:53:25 2003:entelekia [0/] Msg:cool
Mon Oct 6 19:53:36 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If it's dog aggressive, you might want to see a behaviorist anyway!
Mon Oct 6 19:53:46 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes, I was thinking about people aggressive.
Mon Oct 6 19:53:50 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:But you can try shovelling treats at the dog whenever another dog comes into view
Mon Oct 6 19:54:31 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You could do the same thing for people aggression - it's just a very very risky situation and not something I would recommend anyone try without professional guidance
Mon Oct 6 19:54:42 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Ruling out medical problems, of course, is the first step!
Mon Oct 6 19:54:50 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:of course!
Mon Oct 6 19:55:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, Matt, you do not have to always have a clicker/treats on hand
Mon Oct 6 19:55:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Once the behavior is learned, you can "fade" them and only bring them out for new behaviors
Mon Oct 6 19:55:26 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:would you be able to use a clicker for dogs that are food aggressive??
Mon Oct 6 19:55:40 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:so for instance........If visitors pop in & we put the dogs in a sit, we don't necessarily have to click treat
Mon Oct 6 19:56:05 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:put as long as you use it each time you're training it'll work?
Mon Oct 6 19:56:32 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Food aggression can be counter-conditioned, yes
Mon Oct 6 19:57:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If the dog is guarding food from you, you can try feeding it by dropping a small bit of food at a time into the bowl
Mon Oct 6 19:57:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:That lets the dog associate Good Things with you approaching the food bowl
Mon Oct 6 19:57:31 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Or have the regular food in the bowl, you approach and throw something extra-yummy in
Mon Oct 6 19:57:45 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Mason is perfectly fine with the "human" members of the famiily touching him, it's when Riley or one of our cats, etc walks by. He starts growling at them.
Mon Oct 6 19:58:02 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:that is Phoebe
Mon Oct 6 19:58:20 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:no fur-being can look at her food
Mon Oct 6 19:58:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Matt -right
Mon Oct 6 19:58:37 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:thanks
Mon Oct 6 19:58:50 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Amanda - sounds just like Mason!!
Mon Oct 6 19:59:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So you could have extra-yummies on hand, and drop them into the food bowl when the fur-beings come near
Mon Oct 6 19:59:26 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I feed her in her crate, and the others have learned that is 'her' space
Mon Oct 6 19:59:38 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Ideally before the dog starts growling
Mon Oct 6 20:00:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So she's teaching them
Mon Oct 6 20:00:24 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Are some dog breeds more receptive to clicker training than other breeds?
Mon Oct 6 20:00:28 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:She seems to need that space
Mon Oct 6 20:00:44 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:And she should have her own space - and really, if it's just growling and the other dogs are respecting that, well, that's how it's supposed to work
Mon Oct 6 20:01:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I don't think you can generalize across breeds - that's like saying Boxers are hard to train!
Mon Oct 6 20:01:14 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Of course, I haven't tried to train different breeds!
Mon Oct 6 20:01:51 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes, but some breeds are better at doing some jobs than other breeds
Mon Oct 6 20:02:05 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:this may come out sounding weird... Riley was here longer which by going by that, he should be superior (higher in rank) to Mason, however he does back off when Mason growls at him. Does this mean that Riley is accepting that Mason is now superior
Mon Oct 6 20:02:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes,
Mon Oct 6 20:02:33 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:at least when the food issue arises
Mon Oct 6 20:02:35 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:Mason is still a pup also
Mon Oct 6 20:02:40 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:In fact, Melissa Alexander makes the point that Bloodhounds, for instance, are hard -wired for sniffing - so you're constantly fighting that (very rewarding) instinct
Mon Oct 6 20:03:16 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:So maybe it's not that different breeds are more or less receptive to the clicker, but that you have to train differently for different breeds
Mon Oct 6 20:03:46 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Mason may still have some "puppy license," or it may be that Mason is taking the role of top dog
Mon Oct 6 20:03:47 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:yes, that's true, but it's just weird watching how Riley seems to say "ok, no problem" when Mason says back off.
Mon Oct 6 20:04:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Length of time in the house doesn't matter a lot of the time
Mon Oct 6 20:05:05 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Age doesn't always matter, either
Mon Oct 6 20:05:25 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Julie, do you recommend a clicker brand? What are the best you know, and how long do they usually last?
Mon Oct 6 20:05:31 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:The dogs have their own heirarchies that in large groups usually aren't even close to what we'd expect
Mon Oct 6 20:05:59 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hum. Well, honestly I don't know what different brands of clickers there are!
Mon Oct 6 20:06:21 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I've got some from Dogwise, some from Karen Pryor (Sunshine Books), and one from a local trainer.
Mon Oct 6 20:06:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:They're all basically the same as far as I can telly
Mon Oct 6 20:07:06 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Ok! And when you own different dogs, is it better to have different clickers with different sounds so they get individual commands?
Mon Oct 6 20:07:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:There are different styles - the ones with a tab on them are popular with people who like to always have a clicker handy, because you can put an elastic loop on it and keep it around your wrist
Mon Oct 6 20:07:21 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Julie - one last question about Mason...
... You said he might still have some "puppy license" how long does this typically last or does it vary from dog to dog. Mason will be 5 months old on Wed.Mon Oct 6 20:07:26 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(They even make clickers with the loops)
Mon Oct 6 20:07:55 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:No, you don't need different clickers for different dogs. That would be confusing if you were training them all at once!!
Mon Oct 6 20:08:19 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:They seem to figure out pretty quickly who is getting clicked for what
Mon Oct 6 20:08:22 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:but if you were training multiple dogs wouldn't your timing become a little off?
Mon Oct 6 20:08:43 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you want to give different cues, you can use their names before giving the cue
Mon Oct 6 20:09:33 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Puppy license varies, some say it expires at 4 months but in my experience it lasts longer than that, often up to about 9 months or so when sexual maturity begins
Mon Oct 6 20:09:53 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:Ali still has puppy license..........she's 5.......
Mon Oct 6 20:10:08 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If you're training multiple dogs at once, you have to decide ahead of time what your criteria is
Mon Oct 6 20:10:10 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:5 years that it!!
Mon Oct 6 20:10:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Do you want all the dogs to sit in sync?
Mon Oct 6 20:10:26 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:Mason is getting neutered in Nov, does that normally effect it??
Mon Oct 6 20:10:52 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:well they both do now when I'm training them both, so yes
Mon Oct 6 20:10:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:If so, you'd click when whatever dogs meet your criteria and reward them, and don't reward the others
Mon Oct 6 20:11:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You don't want to wait for the slowest dog - assuming you're looking for a quick sit
Mon Oct 6 20:11:51 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Just like when you're training a single dog for speed, you only reward those responses that fall within your time criteria
Mon Oct 6 20:11:52 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Personally, how do you reward your dogs when clicker training? With food mainly? If so, do you feed them less during their "lunch" time?
Mon Oct 6 20:12:12 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:yep.....gotcha
Mon Oct 6 20:12:49 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Neutering tends to make other males less aggressive toward the neutered dog, but it generally doesn't change the "attitude" of the neutered dog
Mon Oct 6 20:13:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I generally use food rewards, and if we're doing more than just a few casual things, yes, I decrease the amount I feed at regular meals
Mon Oct 6 20:13:30 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Don't want any fat pooches!!
Mon Oct 6 20:13:43 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:thank you Julie
Mon Oct 6 20:13:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:You're very welcome, I hope it's been helpful!
Mon Oct 6 20:14:03 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:very!!
Mon Oct 6 20:14:15 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I will suggest www.clickersolutions.com for a ton of good information and articles!
\Mon Oct 6 20:14:17 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:It has Julie, I have a better understanding
Mon Oct 6 20:14:35 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Yes, thank you Julie
Mon Oct 6 20:14:35 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I am very happy to hear that!
Mon Oct 6 20:15:06 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:I hope we didn't keep you too long as I know you haven't had dinner yet. LOL
Mon Oct 6 20:15:19 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:ohh, what's for dinner?
Mon Oct 6 20:15:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL - actually, I had a bowl of popcorn before I logged on
Mon Oct 6 20:15:26 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 20:15:27 2003:Boxer_21 [0/] Msg:I will be bookmarking that website and hopefully getting a clicker soon, it sounds like it's more fun and interactive training.
Mon Oct 6 20:15:41 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Hubby won't be home until after 9, he's having chicken and gnocchi
Mon Oct 6 20:15:46 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:Oh julie olly must get you a better dinner nextime
Mon Oct 6 20:15:52 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:The lucky man
Mon Oct 6 20:16:08 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:Oh homemade nocci?
Mon Oct 6 20:16:09 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:It definitely is a fun way of training, and yes, very interactive and very flexible once you get the hang of it!
Mon Oct 6 20:16:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:LOL - no, from a box!
Mon Oct 6 20:16:42 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:Commercial box?
Mon Oct 6 20:16:43 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Homemade chicken, though - or at least, I'll put it in the pan myself!
Mon Oct 6 20:16:44 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:
, I have not gotten the gist of NocciMon Oct 6 20:17:00 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I personally don't like the taste of it, so he's lucky I cook it at all!!
Mon Oct 6 20:17:10 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:or atleast what don determines is the gist
Mon Oct 6 20:17:16 2003:Matt_S [0/] Msg:o.k......I'm off.....thanks Julie
Mon Oct 6 20:17:24 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Yes, store-bought not even refrigerated
Mon Oct 6 20:17:47 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Gnocchi *and* dumplings?
Mon Oct 6 20:18:02 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:no tia and i eat the dumplings
Mon Oct 6 20:18:09 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:don hates dumplings
Mon Oct 6 20:18:13 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Gotcha!
Mon Oct 6 20:18:23 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I was going to say, pretty high-carb meal!
Mon Oct 6 20:18:29 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:LOL
Mon Oct 6 20:18:43 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:no we watch carbs, daughter is diabetic
Mon Oct 6 20:19:12 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:May i ask you a quick barf ?
Mon Oct 6 20:19:22 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Bummer
Mon Oct 6 20:19:29 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:(That was supposed to be a frown!!)
Mon Oct 6 20:19:33 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Sure - ask away!
Mon Oct 6 20:19:44 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:(right click in the text area)
Mon Oct 6 20:20:22 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:sweet potatoes? do you peel them also
Mon Oct 6 20:20:56 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I'm trying to remember....
Mon Oct 6 20:21:07 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I think I've done both - fed with and without skin
Mon Oct 6 20:21:15 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:I havent fed them yet
Mon Oct 6 20:21:28 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I've only heard the problem being with potatoes, not sweet potatoes
Mon Oct 6 20:21:42 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:but had one myself for lunch george ate half..........but left the skins
Mon Oct 6 20:21:48 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:When I fed them raw, I think I peeled them to get them mushed up better
Mon Oct 6 20:21:59 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:well this was steamed
Mon Oct 6 20:22:03 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:When I cooked them, I left the skins on
Mon Oct 6 20:22:14 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:and he demanded some
Mon Oct 6 20:22:15 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:
Mon Oct 6 20:22:17 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:Then we had bright orange poo in the yard the next day!
Mon Oct 6 20:22:24 2003:Boxerworld [0/] Msg:LOL
Mon Oct 6 20:22:25 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:OH
Mon Oct 6 20:22:45 2003:Maniago [0/] Msg:orange poo well that would work with football colours
Mon Oct 6 20:22:53 2003:JulieM [0/] Msg:I may do it again for Halloween 8)
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