Need some suggestions (Long, sorry)

[CodysPop]

Hello everyone!

Well, it has been a great first week with our new pups, but I am a little worried about a few things and need some suggestions. We picked up our pups on Jan 24th. That is the same day that the breeder took the pups to get their inoculations and a stool sample.

The first problem I encountered kinda has me a bit tiffed. When we picked up the pups, the breeder went over the vet's paperwork with us, but was with Bella (female). I didnt think anything of it, so I really didn't look at Cody's paperwork because she showed us that everything was up-to-date. She has always been very good with answering my questions and was very inquisitive when I called about them. We even had to go to her house for a interview before she would allow us to put a down payment. I assumed she was very trustworthy and I felt really comfortable working with her. Well, I naturally went to my vet the following day to get a checkup and make sure everything was legit and they were as healthy as claimed. Well, that is when I found out that Cody has a retained testicle. The problem I have is I paid substantially more for him because he had show potential. Well, according to the rules, a dog has to be "intact" in order to compete in conformation. I was told by my vet that when they have a retained testicle, they had to be neutered and can't be used as studs because it could cause problems down the road (ie...different cancers) The breeder was aware of this before I paid her the remaining balance for Cody, but failed to mention that he had this problem. Would I be in the right mind to try to get the difference from her because of this? She sold Bella to us at a discount because she is white and cant be shown, so in my opinion, I feel that I shouldn't have to pay more for Cody since he now cant be shown.

Ok, now issue #2. According to the vet's paperwork that she provided to me, they both had a fecal float test (Jan 24th), which came back negative. This past Friday around midnight, I noticed tapeworms coming out his lil rear (yuck!). I had read somewhere that it takes 2 weeks for the eggs to incubate in the intestines before you will notice worms. Is this true? If it is, how is it possible for him to show negative in his fecal test, but have worms just a week later? Is it possible for the breeder to obtain false documentation from a vet?

Just to clear something up....I had full intention to have Cody neutered regardless of his testicle problem or not, so it really isn't a huge problem, but I do feel it is only fair that if one is sold due to not being able to shown, than the other should be the same price. Also, I have NO intentions of ever giving either of them up, but I really want to know how I should approach the breeder with these issues. I have recently sent in my AKC paperwork and I really hope that the certified pedigree is the same as the pedigree that she provided to me at time of purchase. I finally settled with this particular breeder because she had full guarantee, did microchipping, and both the sire and the bitch had long lines of champions. I will admit that some things she did are very very appealing. They both already were crate trained...could do simple commands (sit, come, stay) and were already paper-trained. She hand raised them and was overall a great person. I may be wrong with my thinking, but I would like to talk to her with an open-mind and hopefully with some good suggestions.

Thank you and I apologize for the length...

James

 

[Louise501]

Hi, I can only comment on the retained testicle, as Luka had that too. The vet actually managed to squeeze it down during his neuter so he didn't have to cut to find it as sometimes can happen, but the retained testicle could actually come down into the correct position naturally

 

[lirpa23]

I'm a little confused. You said that you paid more for him because he was to be of show potential, but then in the same post said you had full intentions of neutering him, regardless of the testicle issue?

Were you planning on showing Cody? If not, it isn't really an issue, other than the neuter will be a little more extensive.

From my experience, a breeder doesn't sale a pup, even from a champion litter of show potentials, based on individual flaws. Rather, from my experience, a breeder has invested a lot of time and a tremendous amount of money on the bitch and stud fee, show costs, cost of the litter, etc. and charges for the pups according to "show quality" or "pet quality". The only difference between show and pet quality is very small flaws that usually only a professional can determine. It could be a marking, head size, etc. that would not make that pup the best show dog for the ring, therefore it would go to a pet home. That seems to be the norm in my area of the country. If you told her from the beginning that you wanted a pet that will be neutered, it shouldn't matter. The pup you bought still has champion blood, and I am assuming health testing, etc. That is what you pay for.

I'm certainly no expert, but this is the info. I have gathered from my research.

I don't know about the tapeworm issue. I hope someone else can shed some light on that for you.

 

[angleheart]

First, here is a link to an article on undescended testicles in puppies:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&articleid=897

As it states, you have until around 12wks of age to see if that testicle will descend naturally. But then again, maybe a vet has a way to tell already that it won't, I don't know. We didn't think Harley's was going to and the vet did a little massage to try to help in along a little, and whether that had any effect or not, it did eventually descend on it's own. So, in other words, I don't know that a breeder can claim an undescended testicle at the age of 8wks and adjust the price accordingly...it may be possible that they can't. I think a breeder will price a puppy based on it's pedigree and how well it's meets all the breed standards, not according to what the owner has planner for it. I suppose they could include this situation in a health guarantee if they chose to, but I don't know.

Don't know much about the worm thing, never had a problem with it...sorry

Otherwise, glad to hear the babies are doing well!

 

[CodysPop]

I'm a little confused. You said that you paid more for him because he was to be of show potential, but then in the same post said you had full intentions of neutering him, regardless of the testicle issue?

Were you planning on showing Cody? If not, it isn't really an issue, other than the neuter will be a little more extensive.

From my experience, a breeder doesn't sale a pup, even from a champion litter of show potentials, based on individual flaws. Rather, from my experience, a breeder has invested a lot of time and a tremendous amount of money on the bitch and stud fee, show costs, cost of the litter, etc. and charges for the pups according to "show quality" or "pet quality". The only difference between show and pet quality is very small flaws that usually only a professional can determine. It could be a marking, head size, etc. that would not make that pup the best show dog for the ring, therefore it would go to a pet home. That seems to be the norm in my area of the country. If you told her from the beginning that you wanted a pet that will be neutered, it shouldn't matter. The pup you bought still has champion blood, and I am assuming health testing, etc. That is what you pay for.

I'm certainly no expert, but this is the info. I have gathered from my research.

I don't know about the tapeworm issue. I hope someone else can shed some light on that for you.

I never told her that I was going to get him neutered. I told her specifically that I was looking for dog w/show potential. At first I was very interested in showing him and maybe even use him for stud service due to his bloodline. Then I did some reading and found out the cost involved, which isn't feasible for me at this time. I DO plan on getting him involved with agility as soon as he is old enough. I think it would be a blast and not to mention, get me back into shape... I have no problem paying the amount I did because I was looking for best quality, but it almost seems like she didnt tell me about his testicle on purpose. She may not have even known until the vet diagnosed it, but to not even mention it to me at the time of pick-up is what bothers me the most. I put the down payment on him before they were even born. I don't know. I do understand that there is a ton of cost involved for the breeder, but she sold us Bella for less because of her inability to be shown. I was just trying to see if I should just let it drop, or actually call her and explain the situation. The vet did mention that the testicle may still drop, so I am hoping that it will. I have noticed that there is actually a place for it to go if it does. There used to only be one testicle and one place for the testicle to go, but now there is another outline of a testicle, but it is still hollow. The vet did say that its more expensive of a procedure if it does stay retained though :( so I can only pray that it does decide to drop. I am completely new to the parenthood of a pup, so I tend to overly worry about the slightest things. I am sure I will feel 100% better once I received a complete pedigree from AKC and not an incomplete one.

 

[lirpa23]

Well, in my opinion, if you did tell her that you wanted a show dog, and if you paid the fee for a show dog, and she indeed sold you a pup with a retained testicle, without mention of this flaw, than you certainly have a right to be upset. I thought that you had made it clear to the breeder that you were going to neuter.

However, in the long run I don't think there is really anything you can do. Did you sign any type of health contract with the breeder? The only solution, if she even chooses to communicate with you again, is to either get your money back and return the pup, or trade the pup for another. That stinks, I know. I am sure that you don't want to give up a pup that you have already bonded with as part of your family, but you can't keep the pup and get a refund. I guess in most places the law just looks at the sale of a puppy the same as any other type of "property". One of the most frustrating things about finding a puppy is finding a decent breeder. There certainly are more bad ones than good ones these days.

The good news is that since you are going to have him neutered anyway it doesn't matter in the long run. Because as you stated, even if he was true show dog material, you don't have the money or experience to begin a show career for the dog.

I would be irked, as well. But you have a sweet little pup, so try to concentrate on that right now. I hope everything works out.

 

[CodysPop]

Well, in my opinion, if you did tell her that you wanted a show dog, and if you paid the fee for a show dog, and she indeed sold you a pup with a retained testicle, without mention of this flaw, than you certainly have a right to be upset. I thought that you had made it clear to the breeder that you were going to neuter.

However, in the long run I don't think there is really anything you can do. Did you sign any type of health contract with the breeder? The only solution, if she even chooses to communicate with you again, is to either get your money back and return the pup, or trade the pup for another. That stinks, I know. I am sure that you don't want to give up a pup that you have already bonded with as part of your family, but you can't keep the pup and get a refund. I guess in most places the law just looks at the sale of a puppy the same as any other type of "property". One of the most frustrating things about finding a puppy is finding a decent breeder. There certainly are more bad ones than good ones these days.

The good news is that since you are going to have him neutered anyway it doesn't matter in the long run. Because as you stated, even if he was true show dog material, you don't have the money or experience to begin a show career for the dog.

I would be irked, as well. But you have a sweet little pup, so try to concentrate on that right now. I hope everything works out.

Well, I got some good news!! His other testicle has dropped, so all my worries were for naught :D

 

[lirpa23]

Well, that is interesting. Do you still plan on having him neutered? There are many reasons to do so, if you choose not to show.

My Rocco had an undescended testicle when we got him at 12 weeks, but his never did drop. It didn't make much of a difference to us, however, because we had planned on neutering regardless of that situation, and I don't regret it for a second.

Good luck with Cody, and let us know how he is doing.

BTW, I still find the breeder's motives questionable, considering the fact that the testicle might have never dropped. Have you spoken to her again?