Need some help with the "down" command

[beanieh]

Bongo and I are in a "graduate" puppy class, which moves at a slightly slower pace than a beginning obedience class. Tonight we were working on sit-stays, and then down-stays. Bongo completely refused the down. After several tries, he looked at me all freaked out, and then inched forward and was pressing his head into my shoulder (like an elephant pushing on a tree). He wouldn't nibble at the fine stinky treat I was offering. He wouldn't do ANYTHING -- he was too stressed.

When we practice down at home, I cannot get him to stay with his chest on the floor for more than a microsecond. He touches down, and then rebounds up instantly. I make him down before he gets his food, and I work with him periodically during the day with little treats. He WILL NOT go down if I am standing, or if I have him positioned on my left. I have to be stooped down in front of him, tapping the floor with a treat. Then, maybe, he'll go down. If I touch his shoulders to hold him down, he's up in a flash and looking at me with horror on his face -- like, what on earth do I think I'm doing?

He's just about 7 months old, and I know this is going to be a long process. I'm looking for any suggestions for other ways to help him learn this. Do my treats need to be stinkier? Is my body language saying something besides "down"? What about corrections with his pinch collar? I only use the collar during class and when we are practicing heeling. Should I have the collar on during all our other practice sessions? I'm thinking I need to go back to square one with this, but I'm concerned that we're going to be stuck using bait to get him down forever!

Help, please!

Eve & Bongo

 

[Krikkit]

We went through a similar thing with Amy, when she was around Bongo's age. In her case, it was actually the training classes that put her off. She was worried about being in a down with so many dogs close to her. I did not do the down at all with her at training for a while, but practiced lots at home, then at the park, then at the beach, then back in class. At 9 months of age she passed her first obedience trial with flying colours, including the group 3 minute down stay.

I'm not sure Eve, but it sort of sounds to me as if Bongo does not really know what 'down' is. If you are using the treats like you describe, he may be so used to being lured that he does not really know the exercise. This may not be the case.. Have you done any clicker training at all? This is a great way to teach a down as it's all the dogs own idea ....

I would not worry about the collar, dogs should get used to all these things no matter what they are wearing, or where they are, or who they are with It just takes time a patience. Maybe you can change the word you use for down? This often helps with training problems like this. You may also just like to watch him when you are not officially training, and praise him (and maybe treat) when he lies down of his own accord.

There are many way to teach a drop, so if you are really having troubles you may want to investigate the alternatives. Sometimes starting from scratch getting the dog to crawl under your leg, when you are sitting, starts the exercise fresh for the dog. You could also make use of oppostion reflexes and push lightly on his chest, upwards, to see if this will help him lie down.

Here are some articles that might help you work through this with Bongo:

REWARDS, LURES & BRIBES by Suzanne Clothier
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/rewards.html

Sit Happens & Downhill from here
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/sample/Sit.html

The Basics
http://www.mspca.org/springfield/dog_behavior/dog_basics.html

There is not much online about 'down' really, which is a shame. It might be worth giving yourself, and Bongo a break from down training for a few days, then start again.

have fun

Sharon

 

[Seppe]

Seppe wont "down" for anything. He's either strong as an Ox or as stubborn as a Mule. Our trainer says shes only had one out of a dozen or so Boxers "down". Shes asked me to try to find help for her. Thanx for the suggestions.:confused:

 

[Krikkit]

We clicker train the down. Have never had problems at all with any dog learning this. My Boxers all love the drop exercise and it's a behaviour they will offer frequently Sometimes they may go through a 'phase', as Amy did (and that was my fault anyway), but it usually resolves itself fairly quickly.

Here is an article on clicker training the down:
http://www.clickerlessons.com/sitdown.html
It uses a bit more luring that I do, but it gives you the general idea...

Sharon

 

[basak]

I also use a sign language for Krose that I created:D

Works wonders! He actually listens to my signs more than my voice. I don't know exactly why but it looks like signs have more effect on Krose. Perhaps you can try it with Bongo?

Let us know what happened and I love the name Bongo:D

basak

 

[Adelle]

I recently had a similar problem with Nessa when learning down. She is 2.5 years old, she is a rescue and a very nervous timid dog. Our trainer explained that down is a very vunerable position for a dog that is so nervous. It took a lot of patience to get her to start doing downs, we spent a lot of time at home working on it and eventually she got it, and after some more work she also started doing them in class, but as soon as her chest hit the ground she would pop right back up, so then I started giving her lots of treats on the ground so that she would stay down longer and relax into the position - she is doing much better now. And we are even doing short down stays, but down will definetly alwasy be harder for her :(

 

[Zannie]

we had problems with madie and the down we tried alot of things and to this day she wont down on a hard floor or grass only on carpet.................good luck


ann

 

[Krikkit]

so then I started giving her lots of treats on the ground so that she would stay down longer and relax into the position - she is doing much better now.

That's a really good point Always reward where you want the action to happen. If you want a drop, reward right down low or on the ground - don't reward up high. If you decide to reward for partial drops, still reward right down low - learning happens so much quicker if you place the rewards in the position of the action.

Sharon

 

[everlast]

Keep the collar and leash on when training.

When he goes down (in that split second he touches his chest to the floor) put your foot on the leash near his collar with just enough slack so he can lift his head but not his body. You can then stand up and he will have to remain in the down position.

He will probably fight it a few times, but it works (and don't give in if he whines....he's fine!)
You can repeat "down" if he struggles, but not more than once or twice.

My 10 mth old will down and down stay while I step back away from her, but when I start to turn my back and start to walk away she gets nervous.

It's just practice, practice, practice!

 

[Krikkit]

Originally posted by everlast
When he goes down (in that split second he touches his chest to the floor) put your foot on the leash near his collar with just enough slack so he can lift his head but not his body. You can then stand up and he will have to remain in the down position.

He will probably fight it a few times, but it works (and don't give in if he whines....he's fine!)
You can repeat "down" if he struggles, but not more than once or twice.

Hmmm I have seen this used by other people, in the past. I'd really not recommend it with a dog who does not fully understand the down exercise, or with a dog who is worried, fearful or 'nervy', or at the other end of the scale, a bullet proof and tough as nails dog with not much respect for the handler (could end up in a fight with the handler).

Had I done this to Amy, it would have caused her all sorts of psychological trauma - have found it's far better to work with the dog, not against....

Sharon