Need some help with Raw

[tasham]

Very long story short....we have suspicions that Cyrus is allergic to poultry of any kind. He itches some days so much that it drives us nuts. We have been feeding him a combination of ground lamb, ground beef and beef rib bones, and chicken and turkey legs, necks, backs, basically all parts of the chicken and turkey carcases with bones. Now we want to try to take him completely off any poultry to see if we can calm down these allergies he has going on. I'm worried though about what kind of bones I can feed him. These large animal bones like beef and lamb are just too hard for him to actually crunch up and eat and I know the importance of getting that meat/bone ratio so he doesn't have calcium deficiencies, etc. Can anyone give me some advice on what I can feed him in place of turkey/chicken bones? Thanks!

 

[gmacleod]

He should be OK with smaller beef, lamb or pork bones (e.g. the small ends of ribs). You could also look to feed a reasonable amount of things like rabbit, fish, or anything else that is fairly small and won't have enormous bones.

Bones are a heck of a lot more than just a calcium source, so I would not recommend dispensing with them completely if you can help it. Nonetheless, if you need to get some calcium into the diet and can't at the time get any consumable bones to suit, then you can substitute ground egg shell. Egg shells are just about 100% calcium (whereas bones are far from it) so you don't need much - just about a teaspoon per 500g (about 1lb) of meat is an appropriate balance.

 

[Jan]

You could also try turkey. Dogs who are allergic to chicken are often fine with turkey. I would try just feeding one thing, like turkey and see if the allergies improve.

Good luck!

 

[tasham]

We have had him on turkey for a while and he is still itching. We had actually switched him completely off chicken about a month ago and only have been doing lamb and turkey with some occasional ground beef or beef bones. He has really been so much worse with the itching the past 2 weeks or so.

I have been going through all the different things I give him to see if there's something new that could be triggering this. He was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma a few months ago and I had done some research on some holistic remedies for this disease and one of the things I have started about a month ago was these mushroom capsules that are supposed to be very good for blood cancers and tumors, which is what he has, so he has been on those for a month now. I wonder if he's having a reaction to those and maybe not the turkey. Allergies are so frustrating because it is so difficult to pin down exactly what the cause is. For all I know it's just dry itchy skin from our winter weather or something in our carpet or something he's eating. He's been very itchy since he was a puppy though. I just feel so bad for him because I can only imagine how awful he feels being so itchy all the time. I had a wool sweater on the other day and could only handle it for about an hour before I had to take it off because it was making my skin crazy. I kept thinking I wonder if that is how he feels all day and all night. Ugh!

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

 

[Please Work]

Some Holistic vets recommend you take them off everything for a short period and feed them a "novel" protein which is generally game meat (something that is not commonly fed or found in most commerical foods) and then after awhile slowly introduce a different protein one at a time to try and pinpoint the culprit - not sure if that is of any help to you. Other than chicken and turkey bones I give our girl pork ribs, beef ribs (I have a lovely butcher who gives me amazing meaty ones though she can only eat a small part of the bone on these), lamb necks (I was a little unsure how she would handle these but she eats the whole thing and thoroughly enjoys it), whole fish, the odd rabbit, I also bought a side of lamb the other month and gave her the lambs breast and she did well with that too.

 

[gmacleod]

Some Holistic vets recommend you take them off everything for a short period and feed them a "novel" protein which is generally game meat (something that is not commonly fed or found in most commerical foods) and then after awhile slowly introduce a different protein one at a time to try and pinpoint the culprit.

Yup, that is a standard elimination trial The reason for the novel protein is that it is impossible to be allergic to something you have never previously been exposed to. OK, in a few extreme cases, you could react as early as the second exposure, but that's actually quite rare - allergies are far more normally something that build up over time and after repeated exposure.

The point of the "novel" food, thus, is that it is unique for the dog being fed it. It does not matter one iota whether the food is commonly fed to others, is game, etc. The singular critereon is that it is something that YOUR allergy-suspect dog has not been fed previously, and therefore cannot possibly be already allergic to.

If you choose to do an elimination trial (which, I must say, is far easier for those feeding homecooked or raw than for kibble feeders - the latter of whom cannot possibly deal with ingredients truely singularly), then you can pick any meat you like to start off on. As above, the only critereon is that Cyrus has never previously been fed it. So you might have to look around for a decent source - as to do an elimination trial properly, he should consume only his "unique" meat for 12 weeks (yes, 12 weeks - that is how long it can take for allergy symptoms to subside).

Of course, symptoms may subside sooner But you need 12 weeks for certainty. IF, in this time, the symptoms do subside with no other changes to his general environment - then you have proven that a food allergy exists. That is information worth having: and you can then embark on the process of adding foods back into his diet - one by one, and with space in between - to determine which ones cause a reaction and which don't.

IF, however, you get little or no improvement over your 12 week trial - then you have actually proven that his problem is NOT a food allergy. Which is also information worth having!

Last possibility is partial improvement, which probably means that yes, he has a food allergy or sensitivity (and you continue with the elimination trial as above to find out what is problemativ and what isn't), but that it isn't his only problem - and you're probably dealing with an environmental allergy as well. It is perfectly possible to be allergic to several things, after all, and food allergies only make up about 10% of them.

 

[tasham]

Thank you so much Please Work and gmacleod for this great information! I am going to call some local butcher shops around here and see if there is a possiblity of getting something like rabbit to try him on. Since he's been on the very easy-to-get meats like chicken, beef, turkey, and even deer, we are trying to think of one he hasn't tried.

I do have one question though, when I do this trial switch, is that really the only thing he can eat? So say if I switch him to rabbit for 12 weeks, he gets that as the only thing he consumes at all? I usually add some additional things to his diet like yogurt, cottage cheese, and pureed fruits and veggies (I feed the veggies as a separate "snack" at night and don't combine them with any of the raw so he can digest them properly). Also, should I stop the herbal supplements I have him on for his cancer? I've been giving him herbs like dandelion root, milk thistle, green tea extract, astralagus, and mushrooms, all in powdered form.

thanks again for your help everyone!

 

[Please Work]

I do have one question though, when I do this trial switch, is that really the only thing he can eat? So say if I switch him to rabbit for 12 weeks, he gets that as the only thing he consumes at all?

Yes. To do a true elimination that is all you should be giving him. The other things you add may very well be a contributing to the problem and you wont know unless you remove them and add them back slowly and one by one. And as gmac stated it should be for about 3 months on the novel protein ONLY. I stated "generally game meat" as most of us feed things easily obtainable from the butcher/supermarket like chicken, turkey, beef, lamb, pork etc not many people (well none I know anyway ) have access to most types of game meat. I have heard of kangaroo being refered to as a good "novel" type meat, well this wouldn't be the case for us as my girl gets it regularly

 

[gmacleod]

So say if I switch him to rabbit for 12 weeks, he gets that as the only thing he consumes at all? I usually add some additional things to his diet like yogurt, cottage cheese, and pureed fruits and veggies (I feed the veggies as a separate "snack" at night and don't combine them with any of the raw so he can digest them properly).

Yes, it should be the only thing he consumes. How else are you going to know if it is chicken causing his problems or if it is one of those things instead? That is entirely possible, especially the dairy products... So no extras, no treats, nothing but his unique food. You need to test ALL of the other things one by one to know if they are what is causing the problem - they're just as likely to be the problem, after all, as the meat.

Also, should I stop the herbal supplements I have him on for his cancer? I've been giving him herbs like dandelion root, milk thistle, green tea extract, astralagus, and mushrooms, all in powdered form.

Technically, yes you should. Especially if his allergy-type symptoms started after you added these things to his diet. It is only if the symptoms preceded the herbal supplements that I'd consider retaining those.