Lack of energy on raw?

[saraemilyroy]

After 6-7 months and 3 different types of high end kibble (orijen regional red, fromm surf and turf, before grain chicken) and still having to deal with soft stool-diareah we have decided to switch our dog to a raw diet..

He is close to 11 months old now and weighs an estimated 60lbs.. He is still on the lean side as his ribs and hips do tend to show more then they probably should.. Since the switch on sunday we have been feeding about 1 kilo a day split into 2 meals..

So, two nights ago (Sunday night) we first began his raw diet.. Following the suggestions of everything we have researched we started him off first on chicken quarters de-skinned, some of them had the backs attached as thats all we could come across but the backs seemed pretty brittle anyway...

While he didnt know how to eat them himself, with a little bit of help (holding) he seemed to have loved eating them.. The following day (Monday) he had pooped 3 times, twice they were extremely small sized compared to when on his kibble.. Also seems to be passing less stool as on the kibble which was sometimes 4-6 times a day.. The stool's ranged from semi-hard to semi-soft and a little bit of diareah in the day..

At around 11:30pm last night he let us know he wanted to go in the backyard to relieve himself so we let him out.. It appeared as if he was constipated at first because he was trying to pass stool for about 30-40 seconds before something came out.. When it did come out, it was the tiniest piece of stool i have ever seen him pass, but also the driest-chalkiest looking thing too.. It litteraly 'crumbled' when pressed together in a bag into something with the consistency of dry 'dirt'.. Feeling a bit worried we waited about 20 mins and then took him on a walk, while on the walk he seemed to have passed stool effortlessly and it was semi-soft, and dark brown.

This morning we woke up to hearing him hacking/vomiting.. At first he vomitted up what seemed to be about 2-3 pieces of bone followed by a puddle of foamy saliva/bile.. So i got up, took him for a walk and he pooped again, semi-soft but not diareah, not as smelly as im used to either.. On closer inspection, one of the pieces of stool had bone in it, still white but seemed to be brittle, etc.

My biggest concern right now is just what appears to be a lack of energy in him.. Usually in the days he is pretty hyper, looking to get himself in to trouble by shredding up kleenex boxes, playing with his toys, etc.. Both today and yesterday he seems to be overly tired, sleeping in his cage, etc.. He is responsive to calls and when on walks seems to be pulling as much as usual and even playing with his leash as much as usual, but still his activity level is a bit 'off' compared to normal..

Aside from that, he is also drinking alot less even though the ammount of urine hes letting out is probably the same as before..

Im just looking for guidance and wanting to be sure im doing everything by the books.. Does anyone have any input? Specifically about the energy levels but also about everything else?

Thanks in advance..

 

[Sansal]

Raw chicken bones are totally fine. It is normal to puke some of the bone back up. My puggle does it because she eats a little too fast and sometimes swallows pieces that are too big. I have also read that dogs get rid of excess bone that the body doesn't need for nutrition that way. If you have mainly fed chicken with bone, maybe the bone ratio is too high? That would also explain the "crumbly" stool. Maybe add some chicken breast?
Drinking less water when Raw fed is also normal, nothing to worry about. Kibble dehydrates the body, that's why kibble fed dogs drink more.
Since you started with the Raw only a few days ago I think it is safe to say that he is still adjusting to the new diet.
As for the lack of energy I'm not sure it has anything to do with feeding raw. I would monitor him and see if shows any other signs of discomfort. Since he is still eating, drinking, going for walks and so on I don't think you have to take him to the vet yet.

 

[Kilby'sMum]

Kilby once threw up some lamb bone the morning after but it didn't seem to worry her. I have also noticed much smaller stool since switching. Although, if we feed them grain (which occasionally we do) the stools are larger and softer (and smellier :( ). I figure it's just that their bodies are actually using most of the meat so not much waste. They also drink MUCH less than they're used to.

I second Sansal, doesn't seem like too much to worry about but keep an eye on him and see how he goes.

Also, when we switched, our girls went through a bit of a lethargic period. I actually think they were detoxing all the stuff from the kibble that was still in their systems. After a week or so they had LOTS and LOTS of energy

 

[gmacleod]

When it did come out, it was the tiniest piece of stool i have ever seen him pass, but also the driest-chalkiest looking thing too.. It litteraly 'crumbled' when pressed together in a bag into something with the consistency of dry 'dirt'..

That is pretty close to normal stool The enormous, soft stools of kibble-fed dogs are not going to happen on a raw diet. granted, you will get soft stools following meals that have a lot of meat or offal in them - but you will never get the big fiberous waste that comes from kibble : for the simple reason that dogs fed natural food don't produce as much waste, they digest and utilise their food instead. The stools usually stink far less also. This and the lower volume are generally considered to be a bonus of natural feeding for the owner ;-) as there is far less to clean up, and it's far less unpleasant.

Having said that, if the dog is straining it is likely that he has recently consumed food that has too much bone in it. To be clear here, the stool is *supposed* to be hard (not soft, not just firm - but hard). But you can get too much of a good thing, and if he's having trouble passing it, then it's probably too hard. It is, however, very easily controlled by the amount of bone versus meat or offal in the diet. The more bone, the harder the stools. And conversely, the more meat or offal (especially offal), the softer they will be. So if his stool is too hard, then you should reduce a bit the amount of bone compared to meat in his meals. Very likely, the excess bone is the cause of the vomiting also.

Just to expand a little on the above, you should be prepared for his stools to vary according to what he has eaten (natural feeding does not have the monotony of kibble, thus the stools are not always the same either - what comes out is entirely dependent on what went in). For example, if you feed boney parts of chicken, what you get is small, chalky stools. Offal will tend to produce softer dark coloured stools. Red meat produces mid-brown stools. If you feed carrots, expect the stool to be somewhat orange (which can be a bit alarming, if you're not expecting it). And so on.

As for the lethargy, this could just be a slightly upset tummy - which I'd still put down to too much bone too soon. Very likely things will improve if you up the meat content a bit. In general, naturally fed dogs have more energy than kibble fed (or at least, that's what people who switch commonly report). But it is usually less excitable energy, if that makes sense. Less like a kid on a sugar high, but at the same time with more endurance.

 

[saraemilyroy]

Thanks guys for all of the information, you are all really helpful.

I read that too much bone can cause poo that is too hard and even crumbly, but the odd part was that between his first poo and then his second, only 20-25 minutes had passed and the first one had been 'chalky' (still brown) while the second was quite moist.. I guess consistency in the stool isnt always 100% and some parts of it can be much harder then other parts?

As for the size of his stools, its simply crazy how small they are.. When hes done pooping i sometimes look at him with amazement simply wondering where the heck all the other food has gone.. Before i knew anything about dog nutrition I used to be an owner of a 5-8lb toy poodle and lets just say that whats coming out of our boxer is about the same size..

Eitherway, we cut back a bit on the bone today and the food in general, which is another thing i wanted to bring up.. I've read that on raw (guidelines) that a dog will eat up to 5%-6% of his body weight up until the age of about 6 months and then gradual decrease to the normal 1.5%-2.5% after 6 months.. Right now, he is close to 11 months and an estimated 60lbs but still underweight.. We had been feeding him close to 1 kilo a day.. that would be 2% based on a 100lb dog which is obviously very very large for a boxer..

While we definately want him to put on weight should feeding him less, say 1.5lbs a day instead be better? That would be 2% of 75lbs which sounds more reasonable and not completely out of the ordinary for the breed standard..

The justification in my head to feeding 1 kilo a day was that i could finally have him put on some weight, reach the desired size and then slowly decrease the food intake to maintain that size.. Or is this the wrong approach and im simply feeding way too much to the point where it may be unhealthy?

Take into consideration that all of this math is based on the 2% feeding guideline, which im hoping is right at his age..

Finally, one last question.. While i know it may be unnecessary is there any harm in adding some plain boiled white rice (or any other rice) to his diet while feeding raw?

Thanks again guys in advance..

 

[gmacleod]

I don't think any dog (or at least, not very many) consumes only 1.5-2.5% of body weight at only 6 months. 2.5% is more likely to be what they eat when fully are adult and finished growing/filling out - which in the case of a boxer, is usually between 2-3 years of age - and 1.5% from middle age onwards.

Younger dogs - adolescents and young adults - are more likely to consume 3-4.5% of their ideal adult body weight. So whilst it IS correct to say "gradually reducing to 1.5-2.5%", that gradual reduction usually takes place over years rather than months (all tailored to the needs of the individual, of course).

As a general average, I'd say about 1.0 - 1.2 kg per day is about what a boxer eats from 6-ish months till about 2-3 years of age. That is *considerably more* than the 1lb per day you're currently feeding - so I'd certainly look at increasing that to at least 1.5lb, and probably more like 2lb. Incidentally, IS it 1lb per day you're feeding? You mention both lb and kilos in your post, so I'm not sure exactly which you mean. If it is kilos rather than lb, then scratch the above - 1.5kg per day would probably be a bit excessive, even if you could reasonably go a little over the 1kg mark (e.g. to 1.2kg).

 

[saraemilyroy]

Sorry for the confusion guys..

I had been feeding 1 kilo a day broken down into 2 meals until now.. I understand that the percentages im reading are often guidelines i just wasnt sure if the 1kilo a day was too much to be starting with or if i should reduce..

But thanks for clearing it up for me.. Since hes still on the lean side i'll stick with the kilo per day for now..

Sunday will be exactly 1 week since we started him on raw, so hopefully if everything goes good until then i will be adding some organs to his diet, possibly some liver.. I hope its not too soon..

Thanks again everyone..

 

[saraemilyroy]

Ok, so following your guys' advice i still havent added any organ.. Which i think was definately a smart move as it appears our dog still has loose stool sometimes..

Still, his stool is way better then it was before most of the time and obviously much less..

A little update;

While we are still feeding mostly chicken quarters, unfortunately we werent able to get any the other day and resorted to chicken drumsticks, for one day and a half.. Since they are bit more bonier and his stool was still a bit soft towards the end we figured the extra bone might be of help..

He seemed to have enjoyed eating them (still hand fed, he swallows his food whole and its scary with the bones) but the first night did vomit some meat/bone up.. The next day his stool was small and hard but after passing the first few 'pieces' of stool it appeared he was still forcing as if constipated.. He did this twice for a short period of time, only liquid had come out and it was clear like water almost. Aside from that, he seemed to show no discomfort or anything, was still interested in food/water/playing, etc.

The next day(today) he ate again about 1lb of drumsticks in the morning.. Again he seemed to enjoy them and was just as interested in food/water, was active, etc.. No puking today either.. Around 2pm i took him for a walk to see if he would pass any stool as it had been about 24 hours by now.. The first time he tried to pass stool, it was very good; tight and hard, dark, no smell, etc.. I was quite happy for him actually. Unfortunately, this didnt last long.. While on our walk he kept trying to pass stool over and over again on different occasions.. The first few times a little diareah would come out but it was less and less every time.. Towards the end, it was nothing but clear liquid again..
He was really forcing and forcing for quite a while to the point where i got REALLY worried that it might be some sort of blockage or maybe a piece of bone obstructing.. He even sat down on the grass and 'dragged' his butt on it in an odd fashion that ive never seen him do..

At this point i got a little worried so i took him home as the sun was quite hot, etc..

Right now its about 11pm and im not worried about any sort of obstruction or anything as he did have some diareah later on in the day after that first walk.. He is also acting normal, drinking water and just generally himself..

One thing im realising though, and this might not be related at all to his diet but im hoping one of you guys could tell me if it is.. The area between his testicles and his ainus seems to be pretty swollen.. It doesnt seem to bother him when i touch it or even push on it.. No pain seems to be present.. I dont know if he has always been this way or not, to be honest i havent really spent much time staring at that part of his body.. But, the way he was behaving with the butt-dragging and forcing really hard to pass stool makes me wonder if it could be related.. Im also worried that it might have to do with the ingestion of bones and maybe his stomach not being used to that? Maybe an issue with anal glands? Or maybe its normal and im just being paranoid and over analyzing his body?

I know this post is probably WAYYYY too long.. But im just generally worried.. Almost to the point of dropping the raw diet for something else.. In the end, i just want whats absolutely best and safest for my dog.

If any of you take the time to read this post, i thank you in advance For those who just ignore it for being too long; i cant say i blame you.

Thanks guys.. I look forward to hearing from you.