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is she Fawn or Brindle for registration?

Discussion in 'Boxer Anatomy and Physiology' started by BoxerSavy, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. BoxerSavy

    BoxerSavy Boxer Pal

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    I have six month old boxer and want to register her with the AKC as well as a Show coming up soon. She has 2 small brindle brush marks on her Left Side no larger than four inches. The rest of her is copper color/white.

    take a look at the link and help me decide if she should be registered FAWN or BRINDLE? Thanks!

    Boxer Dog - Pepper CGC by Alexander Werbickas at Coroflot.com
     
  2. Jan

    Jan Reasonable Moderator Staff Member

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    What does the breeder say she is? What colour were the parents?
     
  3. BoxerSavy

    BoxerSavy Boxer Pal

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    Pepper's parents

    Her parents were both flashy fawns. One of her grandfathers was a brindle with white markings.

    the AKC paper from the breeder says Fawn with White Stripe. The section for the coat is written of the code 082 which reads Fawn. That seams accurate. However, under the Markings section the code reads 006... with only given choices of 004 (black mask), 005 (black mask white markings), 007(brindle markings), 008 (fawn markings) and 014 (white markings).

    is there is another category for part Brindle?
     
  4. Jan

    Jan Reasonable Moderator Staff Member

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  5. BoxerSavy

    BoxerSavy Boxer Pal

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    Golden Brindle?

    Just got off the phone with the breeder and both parents are surely fawn. They have never seen anything like that before. Neither have any of the local AKC clubs.

    After reading online it says any Brindle markings must be registered Brindle. Also i read that her markings could be a partial Golden Brindle by the look of them.
    Boxer Dog - Pepper CGC by Alexander Werbickas at Coroflot.com

    Our puppies aunt and grand-dad were brindle so the gene is in the family. But if theres no scientific way that two fawns can make a brindle than it must be a birth mark or beauty mark i guess. Does anyone know if it could be a gene mutation? Thanks for all your help so far!
     
  6. Bathel

    Bathel Super Boxer

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    The dominant gene is Brindle (B), so to be fawn... you'd have to carry two recessive genes (bb)... so if two fawns were breed together, there would be no option but (bb) fawn as the offspring.


    Here is a chart that explains it best...

    Boxer Coat Colour
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
  7. Bathel

    Bathel Super Boxer

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    Not sure what AKC policy is, but I would think that they wouldn't allow a mutation gene boxer to be registered OR they would heavily mark off for that mutation... (assuming that your mutation thought is correct)...

    When you talked with the AKC, what did they say about those markings and the ability to show/breed the dog with AKC full registration papers?
     
  8. Jan

    Jan Reasonable Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't want to is discourage you, but I wonder what kind of success you would have in showing this dog. She has an unusual coat colouring and I wouldn't think that it is something that you would want to encourage in the breed. She probably should not be bred. :(

    You might want to get the opinion of an expert boxer breeder.

    Good luck!
     
  9. TwoDogs

    TwoDogs Boxer Insane

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    About 10 years ago, a study was conducted to see if they could isolate the brindle gene, find out where on the chromosome it was located, and if they could determine the genetic mechanism by which its expression is regulated. It was an interesting study and worth reading the results if you are into that kind of thing.

    More fascinating is that during the course of gathering and analyzing DNA from Boxers in the UK and Europe, they found a dog that was phenotypically (appearance) fawn but genetically brindle. That dog's great-grandfather was a well-known brindle that had NEVER thrown a fawn pup even when bred (pretty prolifically) with fawn females and so had been determined to be heterozygous brindle. He had been statistically proven to not even have the genes necessary to produce a fawn pup, yet he did! It was hypothesized that a specific genetic mutation had occurred and been passed down the line.

    This just goes to show that even with strict breeding programs run by people who know what they are doing, nature can still shake things up. When it comes to genetics, no matter how much we think we can control, it's still just a crapshoot.

    All Boxers are really fawns. Brindles just have another gene that gives them their stripes on the fawn base. In turn there are other genes that tell the brindle gene where and how much to "turn on" which is why you see some really dark, heavily "stripey" brindles and some not so much. Genetics, and especially the heritability of genes that determine the degree to which other genes are expressed, is not always straightforward. When you have a number of genes all acting on each other, if even one small mutation occurs, you can wind up with some really weird outcomes.

    This probably doesn't help you a whole lot in determining how you register her though. The bad news is that she might never do well in the conformation ring. If she is indeed a brindle, she's not brindle enough to show and if she's a fawn then she's likely going to be faulted in the ring for her spot. It looks to me like you might be in a lose-lose situation.

    Now, if you are registering her so you can compete in AKC sanctioned events that are NOT conformation (agility, obedience, rally, etc.) then I would just register her as a fawn and be done with it. Her spot might make people say "hmm?" but it won't affect her trialing career.

    If your heart is set on showing, I'd ask a bunch of breeders and even some judges opinions on the matter. They'll be able to tell you what to do and if it's worth your time showing. If she isn't a show quality pup and it was represented to you that you were buying a show quality pup, you may be able to return her for another pup or get a partial refund on your money. It all depends on the terms of your contract.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  10. BoxerSavy

    BoxerSavy Boxer Pal

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    Thank you all for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences. After long consideration and speaking with multiple people, Pepper was registered Fawn.

    Theres a good chance she will be faulted for confirmation but we will see; im sure she will do wonders in obedience if so. I see her mark as a beauty mark that nature has decided to go against the grain with this one...still love her all the same! I will update this after talking to more breeders and see how she does in the show for the first time.
     

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