Is it possible?

[Sube Ru's mom]

Not sure of this is the right forum or not, But i had a question asked to me that i didnt know how to answer.

is it possible to have 2 boxers that meet all the standards end up with 1 pup thats face is too narrow or a pup that doesnt meet the standard?

Let me clarify, me being the advocate for responsible breeding, I was talking to a friend. They have an unneutered dog that several people have approached them on about breeding their bitch to him. They being the good parents wanted to know if the bitch had all the appropriate tests and stated that they needed to see if the breeder did the tests on their male dog, and did all the dogs meet the standard.

So we got more indepth in the conversation and i told them that Subi looks like a byb dog. Her face is to narrow, she is too short etc etc. and they asked me " can you have 2 dogs that meet all the standards, but one of there pups comes out not meeting the standard?" more or less can you have a male/female with a nice head and get a pup with a narrow head and doesnt meet standard?

they said "If so why would you stress the dogs should meet the standards?"

This was my response and NOT being a breeder i hope i did well. I told them that " a good breeder is going to have a bitch and a stud, the stud should have some of the traits that the bitch is missing and the bitch have some of the traits the male is missing to kind of counter their flaws". But i said i wasnt sure and i would ask BW :D am i right, if not or if so how should i answer that question?

Any advice would be great

 

[JulieM]

Well, first of all there is no Boxer that meets the standard in its entirety. That's what everyone is striving for - the perfect Boxer - but it hasn't been born yet!

That said, the closer both parents are to meeting the standard, the better the chances that the offspring will meet the standard closely. It's certainly possible for within-standard heads to produce not-so-much-within-standard heads - but generally these heads are not as much of a deviation as the heads of dogs bred without any consideration for the standard.

Heads are generally the first thing to go when the standard is not kept in mind, which is one reason why it always should be. Another reason is that the more generations behind the parents that met the standard closely, the better the chances for future generations.

Here is a past post that discusses the dominant and recessive traits that affect the Boxer head:
http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14275

The reason we have a breed standard is to keep the breed the way it was intended to be. If breeders don't care if the dogs they're breeding meet the standard, they soon will have dogs that barely resemble the Boxer as we know it. A look at some of the byb/puppymill Boxer breeder sites illustrates this quite clearly.

And yes, you were quite right in saying that a stud should offset a bitch's faults and vice-versa.

 

[VTbxrFan]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that even with a carefully planned litter by responsible, experienced breeders, there are generally only a couple with real potential for future breeding? That would leave quite a few pups from good parents not close enough to the standards to be suitable for breeding, wouldn't it?

 

[JulieM]

Generally, although sometimes you get lucky and hit one of those nicks where all the puppies are outstanding!

The goal of a specific breeding is to improve on what you have. Realistically, you would expect most of the litter to be about equal to what you have, some of it to be a little worse and some of it to be a little better. Ideally, the ones that are a little better are also eligible to be shown (it is the curse of many breeders I know that conformationally, the best puppies in the litter are the white ones!), and those are the ones that you would keep to move forward with.

Now, if the parents are good examples of the breed you may not automatically relegate the pups that are similar to them to pet status. Your "no improvement" pups might still be an improvement on someone else's stock, or might be good for a new breeder to start out with. And if your stars don't turn out as you expected, or don't produce as you expected, you'll still have their littermates to go back to.

The ones that are of lesser quality than what you have are the ones that would be sold as pets on a spay/neuter contract, to be loved and cherished and make a wonderful companion.

 

[Sube Ru's mom]

Well thanks guys!!! the friend has decided to neuter their dog. They dont want to go through the hassle plus they are pretty sure the dog did not come from an ethical breeder, they got him from a breeder that sells to a petstore. and after my several discussions with them on the fact that ethical breeders do not sell to petstores i think they realized they have a byb :( but still a cute dog. but they dont want to do anything to damage the breed further.
I am going to give them this link

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

 

[Roxanna]

I always wondered about this myself. Elmo's parents were both on site and they had good heads. They looked like boxers. Elmo does not resemble either one of them. I guess it is the recessive gene come back to haunt. His muzzle is slightly longer and lacks any quilting and the lines running down the sides of his muzzle are not present. He was not blessed with a good bite either. His underbite is 3/16". But, he has good qualities too. His incisors are a good size and perfectly aligned. His coat is very soft and shiny. I also love his natural ears. Lately, all the natural ears I see are flying nun type. I have never seen a great dane puppy but I imagine that is what Elmo looks like.

 

[JulieM]

It's possible Elmo is just going through the 'puppy uglies,' too - Boxer heads go through a lot of changes before they're done, and I've seen lots of "Dane" heads on a pup that turn out just fine as an adult. (Sometimes they don't, of course!)

 

[Sally]

Will take the approach that Tessa's dane face is going to turn out just fine. At first, I was not so sure. But with each week of growing, we are seeing advancement in her facial features. Little jowls are starting to appear and her head is beginning to grow into the size of her body (such a tubby butt!). Also, I think what throws me at times is that our previous boxer, Roxy, had cropped ears and Tessa has natural ears. Once in a while we try a new "do" and hold her ears up just to see and to satisfy Mom. BTW no flying nun ears. If she would only hold still long enough to have them massaged.

Sally

 

[Roxanna]

I think he just has an incorrect head and will likely remain that way. He hasn't changed much since we got him at 9 weeks old.

On a good note, all the boxer pups in our vicinity have mange and Elmo didn't get it. Must be that stress free environment he lives in.

 

[PawPrintBoxers]

Originally posted by VTbxrFan
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that even with a carefully planned litter by responsible, experienced breeders, there are generally only a couple with real potential for future breeding? That would leave quite a few pups from good parents not close enough to the standards to be suitable for breeding, wouldn't it?

With a responsible breeder, this is true. But I will say the pet puppies from a well bred show puppy tend to be much better than your typical BYB could ever hope to produce.

This does not mean they should be bred. A breeder that breeds to the Boxer standard is doing so with more lofty goals than your typical BYB. Call it quality control, if you will

Christina Ghimenti
PawPrint Boxers

Sunny Northern California
Boxer Champions and Loving Pets