how many champions on a pedigree

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Alisha Mobley

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by catneon
Then you would probably have to finish him since there are a number of great champion studs with wonderful lines available and it is doubtful that a reputable breeder will choose your un finished dog instead. If so it's more likely to be a backyard breeder.


A championship title in front of a dogs name, or the lack there of, doesn't always mean anything. Showing isn't for everyone and just because a dog wasn't shown, doesn't mean they can't help to improve the breed.:)

Scott, there is a lot to breeding. Lots of research will need to be done before you decide. BoxerWorld is a great place to start as well as talking to Jackson's breeder.
 

JulieM

Boxer Insane
I will guarantee you right now that there are no 100-lb Champion Boxers (other than those who have retired and been allowed to get fat! ;) ) Skie may be "good sized," but I'd be surprised if he was much over 80 lbs. (if that!) in his showing days. 100 lbs. is way outside of the standard. Definitely contact Jackson's breeder. There is probably a reason he was placed in a non-show home. You say he has 42 Champions in his pedigree, and 26 are on Skie's side, so there are only 16 out of 31 ancestors on his dam's side. Whoever you got the pedigree from did not list producers, though (the AKC wouldn't, as it's an ABC title) - there are 20 SOM/DOM on Skie's side including several Legion of Merit producers.

Here are a few more links for you to peruse:
http://www.lvkc.org/stud.htm
http://www.vizslaclub.com/breededu/index.htm
http://clubs.akc.org/vizsla/studdog.pdf
 

catneon

Completely Boxer Crazy
A championship title in front of a dogs name, or the lack there of, doesn't always mean anything. Showing isn't for everyone and just because a dog wasn't shown, doesn't mean they can't help to improve the breed.

I agree that showing isn't for everyone and that a dog/bitch could improve the breed without being shown although I still have to believe it's one of the best ways to evaluate your dog compared to standards (in theory anyways). I know of a beautiful bitch who broke her leg at 6 weeks old, it was a hard recovery, she was never cropped, so the breeder took the decision not to show her (although yes they could have). She is stunning and they did include her in their breeding program and with the right stud she produced a beautiful litter.

My point was more to the effect that if this dog had "potential" I don't know why the breeder would have placed him in a pet home. I understand what you mean that he does have a great pedigree and if he is close to standards someone could still be interested in using him. If he wasn't to be shown(for whatever reason) but used as a stud anyways, I would think the breeder would have either kept him or at least placed him with an agreement to that effect.

One other thing we don't know is was this dog sold on a non-breeding contract, is this dog a limited registration or not??? If he is full registration, I would have thought the breeder would have followed up on his development.

I don't know maybe I'm being too strict. My impression was a good breeder will only sell on full registration to either co-own, or place with a proper contract (see if he can use in his own lines later on) or to another breeder or new kennel (basically someone they know will breed correctly so their name continues to be associated with good lines). I would think someone would want to show a good potential stud dog and that he would be finished and continue his champion lines. My understanding was also that any dog placed in a pet home would be sold on a non-breeding contract and on a limited registration.

Am I making any sense?!? :) Or I am just rambling on! I am sure some people will think so!

I understand there can be exceptions, and I am using my own experience with the breeders I have encountered that were very strict and explicit in their contracts. In my view it was very clear, if this dog would have had potential, the breeder would have kept in touch or would have at least given Scott95 some information and wouldn't need to be asking how to start since many people find his dog beautiful. Maybe I just wanted to make sure he got fair warning right away so he didn't fall in the dark world of a nice byb that will be very interested in paying a nice stud fee to use a registered dog to get some puppies they will be able to sell for more money since they come from champion lines.

Ok I am getting of this soap box! But please tell me if you think I have just encountered very anal breeders!

Scott95 Please do let us know when you hear from Jackson's breeder:)
 
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JulieM

Boxer Insane
LOL - no, catneon, I don't think you've just encountered very anal breeders! :D I think your understanding of how a responsible breeder handles things is very accurate. :)
 

Alisha Mobley

Boxer Insane
Originally posted by catneon
I agree that showing isn't for everyone and that a dog/bitch could improve the breed without being shown although I still have to believe it's one of the best ways to evaluate your dog compared to standards (in theory anyways).


I agree that showing is the best way to have your dog evaluated but, like we both said, it's not for everyone and there are other ways to have a dog evaluated if shwing is not your thing.:)

My point was more to the effect that if this dog had "potential" I don't know why the breeder would have placed him in a pet home. I understand what you mean that he does have a great pedigree and if he is close to standards someone could still be interested in using him. If he wasn't to be shown(for whatever reason) but used as a stud anyways, I would think the breeder would have either kept him or at least placed him with an agreement to that effect.

I didn't see where Scott said Jackson was placed as a pet? I might have missed it though. There are breeders out there that will place a show prospect in a pet home for the simple fact it's a great home! And, getting puppies in great homes is more important than getting them in show homes. In these cases I'd assume the breeder would want to keep the dog intact so s/n contracts wouldn't be an issue. And, while on the subject of contracts...not all breeders use them. This might be the case with Jackson. I don't know so can't really comment...

One other thing we don't know is was this dog sold on a non-breeding contract, is this dog a limited registration or not??? If he is full registration, I would have thought the breeder would have followed up on his development.

There's lots we don't know about Scott and Jackson and I hate to assume anything. That's why I incouraged him to do his research. There wasn't much else I felt I could help with since he told so little. Just about everything I could say, has been said before.:)

I don't know maybe I'm being too strict. My impression was a good breeder will only sell on full registration to either co-own, or place with a proper contract (see if he can use in his own lines later on) or to another breeder or new kennel (basically someone they know will breed correctly so their name continues to be associated with good lines). I would think someone would want to show a good potential stud dog and that he would be finished and continue his champion lines. My understanding was also that any dog placed in a pet home would be sold on a non-breeding contract and on a limited registration.

It's hard to advise much when we don't know a lot about the situation, the dog, the breeder, etc. It does sound as if we agree on how a reputable breeder will handle things, I just didn't want anyone to think if a dog isn't shown and finished, it shouldn't be bred.:)

In my view it was very clear, if this dog would have had potential, the breeder would have kept in touch or would have at least given Scott95 some information and wouldn't need to be asking how to start since many people find his dog beautiful.

I totally agree! And, Scott's quesions lead me to believe Jackson's breeder is not part of the picture. But, he hasn't said one way or the other...

Maybe I just wanted to make sure he got fair warning right away so he didn't fall in the dark world of a nice byb that will be very interested in paying a nice stud fee to use a registered dog to get some puppies they will be able to sell for more money since they come from champion lines.

I wasn't disagreeing with everything you said...only the showing/breeding part.:) And you're right, he does need to be informed...the whole reason I advised researching.;)
 

catneon

Completely Boxer Crazy
I didn't see where Scott said Jackson was placed as a pet? I might have missed it though. There are breeders out there that will place a show prospect in a pet home for the simple fact it's a great home! And, getting puppies in great homes is more important than getting them in show homes.
No, you are right, my bad, I am fully responsible of assuming this, all coming from the original question.
I just didn't want anyone to think if a dog isn't shown and finished, it shouldn't be bred.
Agreed :)

Sincerely thank you Alisha for responding, I love to have a very healthy conversation...or written conversation! I really hope others read this and we can help educate.

LOL - no, catneon, I don't think you've just encountered very anal breeders! I think your understanding of how a responsible breeder handles things is very accurate.
:LOL: :LOL: Thanks Julie
 

Debbie Magon

Boxer Pal
My impression was a good breeder will only sell on full registration to either co-own, or place with a proper contract (see if he can use in his own lines later on) or to another breeder or new kennel (basically someone they know will breed correctly so their name continues to be associated with good lines). I would think someone would want to show a good potential stud dog and that he would be finished and continue his champion lines. My understanding was also that any dog placed in a pet home would be sold on a non-breeding contract and on a limited registration.


Not me.
I sell to what I believe is the right home for the pup.
That has always been my first prioritory.
Anything else such as joint ownership or show /breeding rights, is a bonus.
Guess that puts me in the not too good breeder list?

My point was more to the effect that if this dog had "potential" I don't know why the breeder would have placed him in a pet home.

Almost all well bred pups will have some "potential" but unfortunately one cannot really tell till the dog is maturing , just how it will really turn out.
In fact quite often the very best dog is sold as a pet only because as a pup it didnt appear to have any potential . :(
Unless a breeder keeps all the "potential" pups and runs them onto adult hood they cant really tell who is going to cut it at such a young age, if the litter is well bred and consistant at say 8 weeks.
So once again its back to my original reply.
Best home for the pup.

A championship title in front of a dogs name, or the lack there of, doesn't always mean anything. Showing isn't for everyone and just because a dog wasn't shown, doesn't mean they can't help to improve the breed

I agree 100%.
The very best dogs I have seen and used at stud were NOT champions and most of them reside on their families couch.
Here in NZ I wouldnt give many champions a second glance.
They are NOT made up on their true to standard merits, but more to their true to owner status!
It might be a bit different in America but plenty of show people from there, tell me frequently how dogs are made up by such and such who is a top well known handler and was paid a pretty penny to get the dog titled!
So in my opinion, every dog should be evaluated on its own merits by someone who is impartial and qualified to do so.
The only time a pedigree is of any real use is to check on the ancestors state of health, temperament, longelivety and structual conformation.
Of course this isnt on most pedigrees, so actually seeing these dogs is even more imperative!
If a really gorgeous, healthy dog is also a champion and it was shown by a "no body" then well done!
 

scott95

Boxer Buddy
Jackson was on full registration, and will never be shown though, cause I think it is inhumane to do his ears, therefore they were never done. The breeder I recieved him from, and I do keep in contact, but she has since moved from IL to NV. She did make sure though that when I was submitting his registered name that her kennel name be included as part of her name as she knew I was thinking of the possibility of using him as stud.
 

catneon

Completely Boxer Crazy
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Thanks Scott95 for checking it out and providing the extra information.

I would definitely continue contact with your breeder and speak with her for advice. She probably knows people in your area she can refer you too so Jackson can be evaluated and probably some other breeders that may be interested.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.:)
 

Alisha Mobley

Boxer Insane
Jackson was on full registration, and will never be shown though, cause I think it is inhumane to do his ears, therefore they were never done.

You can show with down ears...much harder but is allowed.:)

The breeder I recieved him from, and I do keep in contact, but she has since moved from IL to NV.

Has she seen Jackson lately? What are her thoughts on how he's matured?

She did make sure though that when I was submitting his registered name that her kennel name be included as part of her name as she knew I was thinking of the possibility of using him as stud.

Usually when a breeder places a dog with the possibility of him being used for breeding, the dog is placed on a co-ownership so that the breeding of the dog can be overseen by the breeder herself/himself (unless the dog is being placed with an experienced breeder). It's very hard to tell, until a dog is mature, if it should be part of a breeding program or not. That's why breeders like to have some control over their puppies as far as breeding from them goes...the puppy may not turn out like everyone had hoped.:(

Have you had the chance to contact Moonstruck? Since Jackson's breeder has moved away, it might be easier to work with the sire's owner (I do think they should know of your plans no matter and should have the chance to give their opinion).:) Carol is a very nice lady and was quite helpful when I had questions a fews years back.:)

Moonstruck Boxers
Carol Ann Peters
http://www.geocities.com/boxerpals/Moonstruck

With Jackson's size being way out of standard, I'm not sure if that alone would deem him as "non breeding material" or not? It is something to think about though...even if everything else is perfect (conformation, health, temperament).

Keep us updated...:)

<<Moderator's Edit - I removed Carol's e-mail address to prevent spiders from stealing it. It can be found on our Breeder Listing: http://www.boxerworld.com/breeders/ )
 
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