Desperately seeking insight and experience....

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tripleod

Boxer Pal
My 7 year old boxer, Sammy has became seriously ill the past few days. Two emergency trips to the vet and we have no answers but a very sick dog none the less. I will describe the situation in detail and if ANYONE has any insight or experience myself and my vet are open to your knowledge.

Thursday evening after napping Sammy was struggling to lift himself up off his pillow. As if he didnt have the strength in his front legs to do so. We assumed he was stiff or something and we helped him stand. He then walked outside, did his thing and came back in (we were with him outside). Shortly after he was panting hard, and foaming at the mouth. After several minutes of that he vomited and seemed very disorientated, then he collapsed. He didnt collapse like he passed out, he collapsed like he suddenly became so weak that his front legs could not support him.
We rushed him to the emergency animal hospital where they did a battery of tests and put him on a heart monitor for 12 hours. In that 12 hours they saw four arrythmias but nothing they felt was concerning. He appeared fine in the 16 hours of observation so we took him home late friday afternoon. Early Saturday 3am, repeat episode of Thursday night, except this time while he was laying weak he had a BM on himself, his breathing was all over the place- fast, short, slow, hard, shallow with long pauses. The episodes are about 45-90 minutes start to finish.
Saturday day he just slept all day, Sunday morning same episode all over again....only this time I thought we were going to have to dig a hole. He was not coming out of it and his breathing was so shallow and so far apart. Once again we picked his limp body up and rushed him to the vet (emergency on a sunday). Literally, two blocks from the vet he sat up and when we got to the vet he walked in on his own and was his charming boxer self!!!!!!
We are completely stumped by these episodes! They do not think the arrhythmia is the cause of these episodes (not really looking like cardiomyopathy). The have ruled out poisoning (they say the episodes would be constant). Blood work looks good, no signs of Addisons- they will be testing for atypical Addisons. They are also considering vestibular syndrome, or some sort of vagus nerve issue stemming from????????
Has anyone ever heard of this....one minute your dog is seemingly dieing in front of you, then they aren't, then they are???????
Like I said, I would be appreciative of any advice or insight.
 

Cami

Boxer Insane
So very sorry to hear that your boy isn't well.
While this might not be cardiomyopathy it could very well be another heart issue.
By the symptoms you described it seems CLASSIC heart ailment of some kind (to me) but of course I am not a vet. With fainting type episodes, weakness, change in breathing, etc...that is where my mind usually goes having been down that road before. There are many health issues that can cause death but not many that can be as extreme and sudden than those of the heart. What you are describing seems very extreme.
The 4 arrhythmia's don't really tell the whole tale. Were they just single early beats? Were they in clusters (more than one early beat at a time)?
I don't know if my experience will help but I'll share anyhow.
When Cami was 3 years old she was walking in the yard, vomited and then went down. I didn't see it (I missed it by a blink) but hubby did. He said, "Cami just tripped and fell." Typically dogs just don't walk around and then trip and fall. I knew immediately it was her heart.
That episode lead us to the cardiologist who after testing (holter) showed she had 30-ish early beats (singles) in 24 hours. They did not give her a diagnosis of cardiomyopathy and could only say that "perhaps" the fainting spell was related or perhaps not. She never fainted again until over 3 years later and then a 6 week long medical crisis ensued in which she lost the battle. Cardiomyopathy was the culprit as well as a long list of other heart conditions directly caused by the cardiomyopathy.
All dogs are different. What might cause symptoms in one might not cause them in another. 4 PVC's in a Boxer might be totally normal since their hearts seem to be different than other breeds and it can also be a significant sign of a serious condition. A boxer with 4 PVC's in 12 hours might have another 4 or even more in 24 hours (typical time frame for a proper holter).
Since he seems so bad during the episodes AND PVC's are present I'd make quick work out of having him seem by a cardiologist who can do further testing and offer up their opinion.
Sadly too many Boxers get a clean bill of health when it comes to their hearts only to not recover from the "next" episode.
I am not implying that Sammy does indeed have a heart ailment only giving my opinion based on the symptoms you described. Any number of other people could have seen the same symptoms with their Boxers and had a totally different diagnosis.
I hope you get some answers very soon.
At minimum I'd ask about a holter and having an ultrasound done.
 

Gatorblu

Boxer Insane
I'm with Susi, it sounds like classic heart issues. Did you check the gums during either episode? With a heart issue the gums will turn pale. I would seek a cardiologist. I would want a true 24 hour holter reading. When a dog is at the vet there are stressed because they are not home, yet because they are in a kennel they are not moving either. Their readings are skewed IMO. Your dog was never really relaxed, which is when the episode happened, or super excited either.

I just had a holter done on Thor, with the monitoring and the exam I cost me about $350. We had another cardioligist that charged $300 for the 1st holter and $125 for any subsequent ones.

I hope your pup is feeling better. I know how truly scary it can be to see your dog is not how they should be. Lots of healthy ((((vibes)))) coming to Sammy!
 

tripleod

Boxer Pal
if it is cardiomyopathy there isn't much that can be done correct? and yes, his gums went pale each time.....he hadn't been doing anything prior to the incidents although they all happened within 20 minutes of him eating....vet said to feed small amounts in case because of potential issues with the vagus nerve
 

Gatorblu

Boxer Insane
There are medications they can to help manage it. It all depends on how far developed the disease is. My boy didn't show any signs until he was pre-op. Surgery was canncelled and he was at the cardiologist with 2 days. He has been on sotalol for 2 years now. With his medication at the dosage it is now he had 13 triple arrythmias is 24 hours. Last year at the lower dosage it was triple that. To be honest he has never had any kind of episode or seizure, other than focal head tremors, and those I have attributed to his hypothyroidism.
 

Cami

Boxer Insane
Were they in clusters (more than one early beat at a time)?

My bad. That should have read "couplets", not clusters.
Pale gums are also common with heart issues and a lot of times came with fainting episodes (when heart related). The heart isn't working correctly and oxygenation levels in the blood become low, hence the pale gums. There are other causes for pale gums that are not related to heart issues (anemia for example) but *sometimes* those wouldn't cause the other symptoms you describe.
MANY Boxers live and thrive with cardiomyopathy when they have the proper treatment. The biggest obstacle is getting an accurate diagnosis and then working with a cardiologist on what would be best treatment-wise for your pup.
The longer it goes untreated the bigger the risk you take on the issues causing further damage to the heart itself. If you are dealing with a heart issue the damage is happening NOW (heart muscle).
ER's are great for emergencies but this situation needs the expertise of a specialist. Vet medicine isn't the same as human medicine in these situations. You don't need a referral from your traditional vet you just need to call and make an appointment with a cardiologist. Make them aware of the severity of the situation to get seen sooner rather than later. The ER you visited may have a cardio on staff?
 
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rbrianboyd

Boxer Pal
I'm also onboard that it is a heart issue. My Bailey had similar symptoms. Get a holter monitor 24 hour test. Inexpensive and will tell you for sure. Bailey has been on the medication, Sotalol, for almost three years now with no further episodes. Cost of the medication is less than $10 per month @ Walgreens.

Best,

Brian
 

MomtoMaggie

Boxer Booster
test for addison's

Maggie has an arrhythmia that was diagnosed via a holter after she had a grand mal seizure out of the blue. Her episode was most definitely a seizure. My first thought when I read this post is Addison's and these may have been Addisonian crises. While I would certainly take him to the cardiologist, are you having an ACTH stim test done to check for Addison's? Did they do blood work at the ER? If so, do you know what the Na/K ratio was? 27 or below can be indicative of Addison's, but you need an ACTH stim test to diagnose it. While the name sounds scary,it's actually quite easily managed with medication.


Boxer hugs and kisses,

Heather, mom to
Maggie/boxer/63 lbs/11 yrs/ CKD, chronic pancreatitis, hypothyroidism, arthritis and newly diagnosed with adult onset epilepsy and likely IBD.
&
Gabby/boxer/ 45 lbs/6 mos/CaOx crystals and crazy puppy syndrome :) Orange County, CA
 
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