Breeding for working ability and temperament.

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by Nedra's_momma
I stand corrected.



Please see:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/28/dog.mauling.arrests.01/

Unfortunately there isn't too much of a clear of a definition between attack training and protection training in the eyes of the law. Was the dog protecting the property?? Yes, they were, also additional problems here were 1. The handler was not present to call the dogs off at the time the attack happened. The dogs were in the care of the owner's lawyer. I can say from experience that my Obedience trained boxer will not accept another handler other than myself, or anyone else that has gained her respect. Boxers are just like that. They are a one person/one family dog. and 2. Nothing was said about the environment in which the attack happened. If I had a trained protection dog, I would hope they would react in a close, dark hallway (which many apt complexes are). The problem here was not the dogs, rather it was the owner, whom could not take responsibility for their animals and failed to put them into a situation that was appropriate for the care of the individual animal.

Whether the dogs were trained to bite through an illegal attack-dog ring or through a Schutzhund training club, the outcome would be the same. Newspapers would smear "professionally trained attack dog bites woman" all over their front pages. I even had one person approach me and say, "Did you hear those dogs were trained using some Nazi-war training methods??" Hmm... Sounds like they were mistaking this "illegal attack-dog training" with Schutzhund (which was used by the Nazis during WWII). This person didn't know a thing about dogs, but they obviously heard it somewhere...

According to the article, "Under the California penal code, any person owning, or having custody of a dog trained to attack or kill may be held liable should the dog kill a human."

My original question stands. Why would any civilian living in the sue happy country of the United States of America want to intentionally train their dog for bite work??

You are correct, in the public eye a dog trained properly or not will probably receive the same comments, althugh in the link you provided it states that the inmate allegedly run a dog fighting ring, so I think that this particular article is quite accurate and fair. But press being press, they write what they want and will do everything to be heard, right now the pittbulls are their favorite topics, yet every news paper fails to mention that any dog can bite and many are capable of killing (infact over 20 breeds were involved in fatal attacks in the last 20 years, including a pomeranian). Education is the key and this also includes the press (only if they wanted to listen).
I also agree that with this case the master wasn't present so it may not have been prevented regardless of what training the dogs received.
Your question is why poeple do it in your country?
Guess for the love of it, and since so many people do it they probably don't see or feel that lawsuits will be a problem.

Originally posted by Nedra's_momma

So you are saying that you don't think that a dog that is *worked* and *encouraged* to bite (even if only on command) at a formal training facility is more likely to bite than my pet who has been taught bite *inhibition* since the time that she was 8 weeks old??? You say that any dog with a defensive drive will bite if put into the situation that they had to make the decision alone... Don't you think you intentionally build on a dog's defensive drive by encouraging it to use that same defensive drive in *protection* training??



Nope, sorry, my girl knows what "NO BITE!!" means, as per her training for bite inhibition. The key here is that she was never trained that it is OKAY to bite.

I have to agree with you again, trianing will have an impact in how the dog will react, but IMO the genetics are a bigger influence in this case.

Originally posted by Nedra's_momma

You have to understand why people get "defensive" *grin* on this subject. Many of us work our dogs in AKC Obedience. Who are you to come in and question the quality of that training by comparing it to another method of training?? From what I have seen AKC Novice, Open and Utility exercises are very similar to the Obedience portion of formal Schutzhund training. Similar exercises can be seen across training methods. Have you been to an AKC Obedience match?

Don't get me wrong, I respect people that train their dogs in Schutzhund, but only as much as I respect people that train their dogs in AKC, CKC, UKC, etc Obedience. My father is a police officer and I am somewhat familiar with the training methods used in SCH, but from what I have seen, things are very similar on both sides of the fence. I think it may be more that "AKC Obedience" training just isn't as "cool" to some people as is "Schutzhund" training is...

Jessica

I hope that I never came accross as being disrespecfull to anyone who does obedience (akc or any other style), if I did I apologize, it wasn't my intention. The difference that just obedience doesn't test the ability of the dog under pressure, and situations or training like that is IMO the best way to evaluate and to measure how solid the temperament of the dog really is. And IMO only the best should be used for breeding.
Peter

 

[Nedra's_momma]

I hope that I never came accross as being disrespecfull to anyone who does obedience (akc or any other style), if I did I apologize, it wasn't my intention. The difference that just obedience doesn't test the ability of the dog under pressure, and situations or training like that is IMO the best way to evaluate and to measure how solid the temperament of the dog really is. And IMO only the best should be used for breeding.
Peter

I am very glad to hear you say that, and I whole heartedly agree, but I still don't see why North American breeders are so bad in your eyes.

What would you say about breeders that do the American Temperament Test?

http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html

Many breeders do this to all of their breeding stock, some of them are regulars here on Boxer World. The dogs are tested using a number of the same methods as seen in the ZtP (gun shot test, dropped items, threatening strangers, the dreaded umbrella LOL, etc)...

Again I have to ask, why is one any better than the other?

 

[Homerhomer]

That's a good test, not as close to a real life situation as some protection sports and doesn't test prey drive all that much, but it's not bad basic tests.
Why do I still believe that german breeding is on average better than north american?
Ofcourse I am not saying everything that comes out of there is great, and all breeders here are not good, but on average more german breeders pay proper attention to the temperament of their breeding stock, and many more take time and effort to test their dogs in the working (sporting) field, while here most of the time and effort is put on comformation.
Just looking at the pedigrees of the dogs on the german breeders websites you will see (don't have to speak german to see that) many (in comparison to north american) dogs with working titles, while here many breeders spend a lot of time in the comformation ring and not in the working/sporting venue. And the more advanced working titles are the better the chances of producing animals that are true to the characteristics of a working breed.
Also I noticed, and I think it's kinda weird, here in north america dog with shutzhund training are called "shutzhund dogs", over there they are family companions with shutzhund training.
Peter

 

[Eric J]

The problem I see is you are comparing a country roughly the size of the state of Oregan and the breeders that live within it to North America. So you are comparing a small select group of breeders to the USA and Canada breeders. That is a very large number jump, and the larger an area the more local ways change. It should be easier for such a tight knight area like Germany to have more in common then breeders in Florida, Californa and Quebec for example. Makes you wonder some more equal questions like how about the shutzhund breeders in North America (not the average breedres) -v- those in Germany. I will hazard a guess these numbers are more in line of equality.

I just find it difficult to compare the German Boxer Club as mentioned in the original post to an area vastly larger and widespread.

 

[JulieM]

I think Nedra's mom meant why is the ZTP testing better than the ATTS testing.

I've actually never heard anyone refer to their dog as a "Schutzhund dog," but maybe that's a Canadian thing. I think Renee or someone already mentioned this, but a big factor in the higher number of Schutzhund titled dogs in Germany is that Schutzhund is not as widely available in the States as it is in Germany.

I was just browsing through Frau Stockmann's book on a different topic, but she had some interesting things to say about Schutzhund. I didn't post them because I figured this thread was dead, but now that it's been revived I'll try to remember to post them tonight.

 

[Homerhomer]

Size wise the difference between Germany in North America is huge, however population wise the combined population of USA and Canada( 284+40) is only four times higher than the population of Germany (approx 82 million).
Anyway I don't know why and how does it make any difference if you take the total number of breeders participating in some sports and compare them to the total number of breeders for the particular region.
I agree that the sport isn't easily accessbile in many regions in North America and that for sure has an affect on how many pople participate in it.
Peter

 

[Sube Ru's mom]

I have to agree with Eric on this, i think comparing, NA boxers to German boxers is unfair. That is comparing apples to oranges. You can not compare the numbers of dogs in a shelter in South Dakota to the ones in MD. Md is a bigger state and more populated so of course there are going to be more dogs in the shelter.

OT- Also, i think blaming the AKC for the downfall of the breeds is a little unfair. Dont get me wrong, i am upset with all the puppy mills, bybs etc etc but the AKC can only do so much. They are a non profit organization that deals with ALL the different breeds not just boxers. And they do more then just register dogs, i dont know how they could also deal with the breeding practices. the ones to blame for the bad breeding is the public. People that do not bother to get educated on breeding and what is involved. People that veiw dogs as a commodity and a way to get a buck versus a part of the family. also the people that continue to buy from the byb's and the petstores. they are to blame for the puppy mills and the amount of poorly bred dogs.

Sorry some of this is Off Topic. Just had to give my 2 cents.

 

[Renee&Jake]

Originally posted by Homerhomer
but on average more german breeders pay proper attention to the temperament of their breeding stock, and many more take time and effort to test their dogs in the working (sporting) field, while here most of the time and effort is put on comformation.

So you like the concept of breed wardens, and having a few people in charge of who's allowed to breed what to who and what the dog should look and act like.

Anything else?

And the more advanced working titles are the better the chances of producing animals that are true to the characteristics of a working breed.

That's not entirely true, although I wish it were actually that simple. Any time you breed a dog with High prey and defense drive, you will end up with puppies that vary in prey and defense drive. Some good, some not so good. Some will be sharp, some dull. It's very nice to think ALL boxers are dull, and there is never temperment variation - but very unrealistic to acutally believe that. Since I'm sure you are sensible enough to know that some puppies produced will not have the temperment to pass ZTP, that would mean by deduction, that puppies of questionable temperment are placed in pet homes, correct? Since not all puppies are breeding quality?

The Stockmanns thought of it as manwork (is that what she called it, Julie?), and the Stockmanns made this breed (and I believe they did) what it is today. Funny that she didn't propose such breeding requirements even in light of what Phillip did in the development of the German War Dog. Why do you think that is, or does it even concern you? Now, Even though it is abolutely common knowledge that Frau Stockmann stated "His real job is to be a house and family dog and to be a friend to the children." (Stockmann, My Life With Boxers, p. 116)"

Now take also into account that Schutzhund is a popular sport in Germany. Wouldn't it make sense, that they are breeding what will excell in the sport? That's really a no-brainer. So you can really promote it as 'preserving' the breed even if all you're really doing is selecting for the proper temperment to participate in a sport you enjoy. Also, if the ZTP is required for ALL German working breeds, then would it be fair to say that in regard to temperment, all Dobes,GSDs,Rotts,Boxers and Airdales should basically behave exactly the same? Reguardless of the breed standard? If so, then why is a Sharp GSD an asset, and a Dull Boxer an asset if they must pass the same test?

Also I noticed, and I think it's kinda weird, here in north america dog with shutzhund training are called "shutzhund dogs", over there they are family companions with shutzhund training.

A little more specifics, and a little less generalizaton would be helpful if you were trying to make a point with that. I for one don't think of all Schutzhund titled-dogs as "Schutzhund Dogs" because they may, carry other titles.

And in closing, if you truly feel that obedience and agility titles are no proof of a dogs temperment, which does include biddability whether you like it or not, then it is only because you yourself have never done it. Title a dog before you claim it does not prove temperment, as I can tell you that it most certainly does. You will never pass a simple CDX or NA title with a weak nerved dog.

-Renee

 

[Nedra's_momma]

Originally posted by Renee&Jake
You will never pass a simple CDX or NA title with a weak nerved dog.

-Renee

I agree with this completely. A weak nerved dog will have BIG problems with the teeter, ramp and the dog walk for agility, as they would with the stand for exam and greeting a friendly stranger in obedience. But, someone that has never worked a dog in either sports would know nothing about this...

As for my previous post, Julie is right; I was comparing the ZtP to the ATTS, not to the entire sport of Schutzhund (apples to oranges here again). My point here was that a weak nerved dog would never be able to pass the gun shot test, threatening stranger or the umbrella test required to earn their TT.

And I ask the question again. Why is ZtP any better than the American Temperament Test?

 

[JulieM]

Here are the passages from Frau Stockmann (pg. 266-269 of the third edition):

Regrettably, today there is a falsehood going around that only protection training is worthwhile. We always hear someone say, "Oh yes, protection training is something you can always use in a dog. But what good would tracking or even messenger training be?"

I have been breeding around thirty years and have trained my own dogs since 1911. Never have I had an experience where one of my Boxers had to bare his teeth to protect his master in real life. But numerous times, my dogs have used their messenger training, as well as tracking and watchdog training to my advantage....

A dog defends a house or thing only when that dog believes the object is connected to his master! It is completely wrong to place a dog in a strange location all by himself, and then expect that it will immediately protect the house.....Certainly, no one who understands dogs would be surprised by that or consider it a fault in them....

But this much we can say for certain: You can probably suppress watchdog instincts, but it can be difficult sometimes to bring them out. And almost any dog can be trained to do Schutzhund work--some better, some worse.

She does discuss man work, on pg. 274:

With the so-called "man work" of Schutzhund training (in contrast to tracking and courier), we often had difficult problems to solve. There were almost no farm boys who wanted to serve as the imitation aggressor. When we did find one willing, then he always had to be trained how to do it. It was impossible to find a really skilled aggressor who knew exactly how to get the best work out of the dog. Despite that, none of my dogs failed the test. Indeed, some were almost too eager....

Some dogs had an aversion for the protection sleeve. No, it was not the most aggressive, quick biters, because attacking the arm was fine with them. They just loved to grab and hold. But it was not the most stupid ones either. No one really knows what goes on in a dog's head. At any rate, there are dogs (especially among Boxers) the prefer to go for the unprotected areas of the helper's body....We usually did man-training twice a week, but later we found that once a week was enough.