boxer wont leave my 5 yr old alone

[Claudia807]

The Alpha Roll

Since the subject of the Alpha Roll has come up, I thought I would mention a good resource. Dr. Patricia McConnell has a booklet called How to Be the Leader of the Pack (and Have Your Dog Love you For It). I found this book to be invaluable. You can get it at Amazon.com and elsewhere. The last chapter in this book is called "The Alpha Roll - Don't Do It!" It's an inexpensive book and well worth picking up!

Modern-day behaviorists believe that the alpha roll is ineffective and in fact is dangerous. The problem is that this used to be standard advice (I think even the Monks of New Skete had advocated it and then later amended that advice) and some people are not aware that many of these theories have shifted over time.

I've attended a seminar given by Dr. McConnell and she makes the point that in the wild, wolves don't usually knock other wolves to the ground and roll them over. A lesser wolf SUBMITS to a dominant wolf and rolls himself over. Therefore, the thinking goes, rolling your dog over onto his back doesn't really tell him anything and in fact may make an aggressive dog more aggressive. If we were to guess at it, we could imagine that it leaves the dog thinking that either a) you're a big bully or b) you've gone round the bend.

There are many other ways to help your dog understand that he/she is not the Big Kahuna at your house, but I guess that's sort of getting off on another subject . . .

 

[Eric J]

Originally posted by Eva
I have NEVER hurt my babies, nor do I ever condone such behavior. When I said "hold their mouth shut," I didn't mean it to sound like a tight long grip...just for a sec at the most....That was not at all what I was saying...I think you misunderstood me.

Regardless if it is a second or an hour, if you "take her lips and gently fold them back over her teeth and hold her mouth shut (so she learns that can really hurt! Kind of like a reverse pinch...)" (taken from your first post) you are causing pain to a dog and even admit it with the last comment. How can you say " I have NEVER hurt my babies, nor do I ever condone such behavior" when you also say "so she learns it really can hurt!".

These two statements are exactly opposite of each other. Obviously the dog is learning from the pain of being forced to bite its own lips. If not, what am I missing in the descriptions that show otherwise?

 

[Eva]

What you are missing Eric, 1st of all, is the fact I stated that I didn't make myself clear in my 1st post...I think if someone says that I tries to re-explain themselves, as I did, then you should stop and think, "well, I've never actually been there in person w/Eva, and she's never been around me and my kids, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding the whole thing..." After all, even w/human babies, there are going to be people who have or still do raise their kids in a way you may not condone yourself. It doesn't mean that I ABUSE my babies, as I now feel you are suggesting. For example, do you think people who spank their kids are abusing them? Some people say yes, some say no. I NEVER hit nor cause my babies to shirek w/pain, or anything like that. And by the way, my babies now even understand that if I say "ouch," say when we are rough-housing, they automatically stop and check me out, because they have a full understanding (how smart our boxers are! ) that they hurt a bit. I never have to do anything physical to them. What I suggested was a technique that I only did I FEW TIMES before it worked and I never again did it. Now, I can understand that you don't agree that it was ever a techinque YOU would condone, but as Claudia807 pointed out, there are training techinques out there that were once widely used and accepted! Mine was one that I had seen other experienced dog lovers use and see it work, so it's not like I just came up w/this as a way to hurt my babies! That is the farthest intention from my mind. I am, however, very open to new training techiques, and I will try to get my hands on that book you recommened, Claudia.

Now, if you can't see now that you are overreacting to me, then oh well, you just need to deal w/it. Bottom line is I already did this, I don't do it anymore, and there is nothing that will change that. And I'm sure if I saw you around your baby, there would be something in your training that I could point out as "wrong." I can think of far worse things that would actually tramatize a dog....and anyone who really knows me says that I am far too sappy and spoil my babies like crazy! They are very well behaved....and BOTH came from previous unhappy homes where they were beaten and/or trained to dog fight, shot, etc...the best examples I can think of of long-lasting trama. I am blessed to now say both are extremely loving and gentle, never afraid of anyone abusing them!

Eva

 

[warmellie]

I can tell you how we stopped Lucas from biting, but the method would need to be done by an adult and not a child. Eventually, the method will reinforce the no bite command that a child can use.

When he would play bite, we would take our hand and while holding it open and flat we would put the hand in his mouth. Not with the fingers pointing down his throat!.... but with the side of our hand facing his throat so that the fingers are sticking out the side of his mouth. (basically your hand is sideways in the dog's mouth) don't rest your hand in the front of the mouth. you put it back where your hand is as far back as it can go resting on the creases of the side of thier mouths. It almost creates a wedge kind of look.

Our hands were wide enough that we could only go back so far but it was uncomfortable for Lucas. The idea is the position is uncomfortable. NOT painful. and it does not gag the dog. They simply don't like your hand in their mouths this way. They will start to pull away and use their tongue to push your hand out. You enforce this gesture by saying NO BITE while your hand is in the dog's mouth.

Lucas was a fierce play biter and he would even snap at my face.

anyway, with the hand thing in the mouth he learned if he was going to bite, we were going to make it uncomfortable. and backing that up with a NO BIte command worked wonders. If you have any questions about it let me know and we can discuss it in email.



========

As far as your dog's behavior, this reminds me of Bossk when I had our baby and I couldn't play with him all the time. He didn't understand rest time and he was on 24/7. He had to learn that 24 hours a day was not his playtime. I think Abbey thinks Brooklyn should play with her all the time and when she doesn't she resorts to this negative behavior.

Is it possible for you to put up a baby gate in an area of your house so your dog can still see the family but will be detained from being such a pest? You can have doggie time outs. you should have dog toys for Abbey to play with while she's there.

This is how we keep our dogs from bothering my three year old. If they get to be too much, I put them in our kitchen. They lie on the floor and give me soulful sighs. But my son doesn't have to deal with them eating his lunch or stealing his crayons or whatever. and then I let them back together when everything calms down. If someone gets out of line again, I separate them.

This way my child can still interact with my dogs but not when they are acting out of line.

Another important thing that may help is be sure you or your child always has a dog toy in your hands when you play with Abbey. WHen she starts biting stick the toy in her mouth and keep her mouthing on that. Large rope bones work good for this.

She'll learn to start focusing her energy on the toy and not on your hands. Bossk still uses this to this day by picking up a toy and dancing around when we come home. He used to snap at our hands as a puppy. Now he mouths a toy. sometimes its one of my son's toys.....but, if that's the case I take it away and replace it with one of Bossk's.

Good luck.

 

[Eric J]

Originally posted by Eva
What you are missing Eric, 1st of all, is the fact I stated that I didn't make myself clear in my 1st post...I think if someone says that I tries to re-explain themselves, as I did, then you should stop and think, "well, I've never actually been there in person w/Eva, and she's never been around me and my kids, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding the whole thing..."

I did, that is why I used for reference what you posted both times. On both occasions you freely admit you make your dogs teeth bite his own lips to teach him a lesson.

Originally posted by Eva
After all, even w/human babies, there are going to be people who have or still do raise their kids in a way you may not condone yourself. It doesn't mean that I ABUSE my babies, as I now feel you are suggesting. For example, do you think people who spank their kids are abusing them? Some people say yes, some say no. I NEVER hit nor cause my babies to shirek w/pain, or anything like that.

Your stating you don't believe in hitting your dog, but you believe it is ok to have them bite themselves as a training tool, thus causing pain. How are they different?

Originally posted by Eva
And by the way, my babies now even understand that if I say "ouch," say when we are rough-housing, they automatically stop and check me out, because they have a full understanding (how smart our boxers are! ) that they hurt a bit. I never have to do anything physical to them.

Besides the admission you make them bite themselves.

Originally posted by Eva
What I suggested was a technique that I only did I FEW TIMES before it worked and I never again did it. Now, I can understand that you don't agree that it was ever a techinque YOU would condone, but as Claudia807 pointed out, there are training techinques out there that were once widely used and accepted!

Correct, but like Leeching to remove bad blood from sick people, it has been proven such methods are not healthy and should be abolished.

Originally posted by Eva
Mine was one that I had seen other experienced dog lovers use and see it work, so it's not like I just came up w/this as a way to hurt my babies! That is the farthest intention from my mind. I am, however, very open to new training techiques, and I will try to get my hands on that book you recommened, Claudia

I applaud wanting to learn new methods. I will be honest, before we obtained Jedi we did a ton of research and I learned my anitquated concepts of dog raising where wrong, that is why I use positive reinforcement and not anything violent.

Originally posted by Eva
Now, if you can't see now that you are overreacting to me, then oh well, you just need to deal w/it. Bottom line is I already did this, I don't do it anymore, and there is nothing that will change that.

Yes it is over with, but for you to advise this cruel technique in others is the main problem here. Especially on boards that specifically state in the rules such discussions are not allowed. This is not overreacting, I have done that on posts in the past and have been nicely stopped by moderators, I am just trying to point out to you the problem here. Some people feel some pain infliction is a part of training, and that has been proven wrong and I am just showing the other view. What has happened in the past is just that in the past. I am trying to stop such things from happening in the future.

The reason I am doing such a lengthy response is to stimulate the discussion and show the proper side of this, instead of pointing fingers and saying what a horrible person anyone is.

Originally posted by Eva
And I'm sure if I saw you around your baby, there would be something in your training that I could point out as "wrong."

I agree, many people do different techniques and don't agree with each other. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with techniques that cause pain or harm to an animal, and those are to be avoided. With the logic presented here you could apply it to potty training and pinch the dogs testicles, labia or anus whenever they went potty in the house. Sounds extreme, but it is the same as a dog being forced to bite itself to teach a lesson also. If you disagree, then what lesson do you believe you are showing the dog?

Originally posted by Eva
I can think of far worse things that would actually tramatize a dog....and anyone who really knows me says that I am far too sappy and spoil my babies like crazy! They are very well behaved....and BOTH came from previous unhappy homes where they were beaten and/or trained to dog fight, shot, etc...the best examples I can think of of long-lasting trama. I am blessed to now say both are extremely loving and gentle, never afraid of anyone abusing them!
Eva

I also agree here. There are much worse things happen. I don't understand how what other people do that is worse compares to what one person does in the interest of "training". Like comparing apples and oranges.

Eric

 

[warmellie]

Originally posted by Eric J

The reason I am doing such a lengthy response is to stimulate the discussion and show the proper side of this, instead of pointing fingers and saying what a horrible person anyone is.




Eric

Training is a learning episode with both dog AND owner. sometimes things are done which are not in the best interest of the dog. As long as the owner realizes this and alters her training techinque, then it all is for good. (and I think she expresses this clearly in her reply.)

and now I think you are beating the issue in the ground.

Of course, this is my opinion. but I felt a strong urge to share it.

 

[Barb_IA]

Originally posted by Eric J



Yes it is over with, but for you to advise this cruel technique in others is the main problem here. Especially on boards that specifically state in the rules such discussions are not allowed.




Eric

I think Eric is just kindly letting all know that there are rules here at Boxerworld.

 

[Eric J]

Originally posted by warmellie
Training is a learning episode with both dog AND owner. sometimes things are done which are not in the best interest of the dog. As long as the owner realizes this and alters her training techinque, then it all is for good. (and I think she expresses this clearly in her reply.)

and now I think you are beating the issue in the ground.

Of course, this is my opinion. but I felt a strong urge to share it.

I totally agree both dog and human learn during training. I myself have learned so much I am amazed. I do not agree she has realized, if so her post would not have contained this quote," I would recommend you come over when Abbey gets rough and roll her over onto her back and hold her still and/or occasionally take her lips and gently fold them back over her teeth and hold her mouth shut (so she learns that can really hurt! Kind of like a reverse pinch...)"

This is why I am making this an issue to discuss. Yes it is in the past, I am not giving her a hard to for past actions before it was learned to be known better, I am taking issue with the fact she is suggesting this method to someone to use again.

As for sharing your opinion, share away in my book, that is the fun of BW

 

[Loke]

Originally posted by Eric J
This is why I am making this an issue to discuss. Yes it is in the past, I am not giving her a hard to for past actions before it was learned to be known better, I am taking issue with the fact she is suggesting this method to someone to use again.
[/B]

Eric! I totally agree with this and just about everything pointed out.


As for the original poster's question: Your pup is still young. I don't know how I got so lucky that Loke was never like that, so I really have no hard core sure fire cure. :cool: I would, though, tend to agree with giving Abbey timeouts in her crate when she steps out of bounds. But don't make it seem like a bad thing! Just put her in there. You don't want it to be a bad place, just a chilling out place. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Eva]

Melissa, thank you so very much for actually seeing the point of my posts!!!! I completely agree with you that Eric has gone overboard on his "critique," if you can call it that, of me. It is very much a learning experience for the owner and the dog(s).

Eric, you state that your point of neverending posts to to stimulate discussion by the board, and that is always a good thing. But, that is not at all how you come across in these posts. I stated how your posts make me feel like you are acusing me and labeling me, yet you do not address this - I would myself, by 1st apologize to that person and then respond. If you continue to play the "I'm the perfect dog owner and everyone else isn't," then in the end you won't stimulate conversation at all, but rather silence by some members. Perhaps you think you have to win every arguement - who knows, but that is getting totally off the subject.

Bottom line is, most here understand my point of view (note that you're the only person that feels the urge to drive this into the ground) and I really could care less what you personally think of me. My dogs love me and that's all I really care about.

Eva