Blue/Blue brindle boxers

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redneckemt

Boxer Pal
I saw a picture of a boxer & was told it was a blue brindle boxer. I looked online & all I could find was references to them being a "designer" dog. A boxer bred with a scottish bull terrier. When I made that comment I was told that these are in fact not a cross breed designer dog but actually pure bred boxers supposedly registered boxers. Does anyone know anything about this coloring on a boxer? I'm just curious.
 

jblackjr

Boxer Booster
I'm pretty sure they are falsifying information. This is a list of the types of colors of boxer which to put it in simplified terms there is fawn, white and brindle but this list the variations of each.

Colour and Markings
 

TwoDogs

Boxer Insane
The true blue brindle that does appear in other breeds is a result of the dog carrying both the gene for brindle marking and a gene for color dilution. The color that is diluted to get the blue/grey is black. Do an internet search for "blue doberman" and you'll see lovely examples of dilution in action.

That being said, Boxers don't even carry the gene for the color black. The only way that a Boxer could be black is if it were the direct result of a cross-breeding or the result of a cross-breeding generations back.

NOTE** I'm talking geneotypically here (what is actually in the genes) not phenotypically (how the dog looks). People do claim to breed purebred black Boxers but if they are in fact not the result of cross-breeding then they are just reverse brindles. Reverse brindles are dogs that are a dark brindle but the brindle marking is such that the darkest, blackest portion of the brindling is so predominant as to give the appearance that the dog is completely black (with or without white flash).

So you might ask yourself "If you can have a reverse brindle that looks black, couldn't you have a purebred Boxer that was brindle that also has the dilution gene and end up with a 'blue brindle'?" Nope. Boxers aren't supposed to carry the dilution gene so you'll never see any true (phenotypically speaking) "blue brindle" Boxers. So if it's in there, it had to have come from an outcrossing at some point.

Again, all this is genotypically speaking and the genotype of coat color is a really confusing subject. I certainly wouldn't sell myself as an expert or anything--not even close! But I'll give example of how things can get really muddy. How many of you have seen a cream-colored French Bulldog? The color is really popular. The problem is, apparently cream isn't a real color in Frenchies at all, or so I've read. In genotypic terms it is in fact a very dilute fawn without a mask. Here's the rub though--Frenchies supposedly don't actually carry a dilution gene! So where the heck did the cream come from? And does that mean that all those cream-colored Frenchies are in fact not Frenchies at all? They sure look Frenchie to me! Somehow a dilution gene has crept into some Frenchie bloodlines but according to the standard, it shouldn't be there.

So the layman in me thinks that if it's possible that it can happen in one breed, perhaps it's possible in another. Maybe those "blue brindle Boxers" are in fact the result of a dilution gene being introduced somewhere, somehow. Whether it was through accidental means or unscrupulous means, who's to say. Either way, to proport that this is some great new breed color or is rare and therefore special and desirable is what is truely unethical. Especially since dilutes in other breeds can tend to be more prone to skin issues.

If you want to be completely confused by coat color genetics and humbled by the amount of information you don't know, consider reading this blog entry:
http://musingsofabiologistanddoglov...1/10/guess-genotype-breakdown-of-alleles.html
or this article:
Coat Color Genetics
 

LILYLARUE

Boxer Insane
A breeder had told me at an AKC show that if a pure bred breeds with a completely different breed, and then only breeds with their own breed from then on......that future pups can actually carry the genes from the outbred litter. Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's true, I can see oopsies screwing up future litters. Ending up with mixed pups in the next litter, or pups that just don't "look" standard or purebred. This breeder told me that her bernie mated with a dane - totally an oopsie and not planned whatsoever. But, she had to stop breeding her bernie due to the genetic mistakes that could happen if she did breed her again. Potential of mixed pups in the litter or flashy bernies.

Anyone know of any truth to this? I find this absolutely captivating to my lack of knowledge in genetics.
 

TwoDogs

Boxer Insane
A breeder had told me at an AKC show that if a pure bred breeds with a completely different breed, and then only breeds with their own breed from then on......that future pups can actually carry the genes from the outbred litter. Not sure how accurate this is, but if it's true, I can see oopsies screwing up future litters. Ending up with mixed pups in the next litter, or pups that just don't "look" standard or purebred. This breeder told me that her bernie mated with a dane - totally an oopsie and not planned whatsoever. But, she had to stop breeding her bernie due to the genetic mistakes that could happen if she did breed her again. Potential of mixed pups in the litter or flashy bernies.

Anyone know of any truth to this? I find this absolutely captivating to my lack of knowledge in genetics.

What?!? That's just ridiculous! Genetic material is contained in the sperm and the egg. Ovulating females release a bunch of eggs and each egg is fertilized by a single sperm deposited by the male during mating. Sperm actually have a relatively short life span (albiet canine sperm lasts alot longer than human sperm). The uterus is actually a pretty hostile place for them so within 5-7 days all the leftover sperm die. When the sperm die, the genetic material disappears with them.

Sperm and its genetic material DOES NOT hang around for future litters. If it did, then pedigrees would be worthless because you wouldn't know if the sire was from this breeding or the last. If sperm hung around for future litters, breedings that didn't "take" wouldn't need to be repeated because the sperm would still be in there for the next heat cycle.

I think cockroaches and some other arthropods and even some crustaceans are capable of storing sperm and keeping it viable for periods of time after mating, but not dogs.

Now, it is possible for a litter of pups to have multiple fathers. So if the Berner bitch had been mated with another Berner and then had accidentally mated with a Great Dane, the resulting pups could look like Berners but could actually be Berner/Dane mixes. In that case, the Berner breeder would be wise to not use those PUPS in her breeding program because even if they grew to look just like Berners (pretty unlikely, but possible) they would still carry the genetic material they had inherited from their Dane father and would pass that on to future generations. But the Berner bitch could go on to breed litters of pure Berners with no worry that she was somehow "contaminated" by a one-time fling with the Great Dane.
 

LILYLARUE

Boxer Insane
Thank you TwoDogs! I knew it couldn't be logically possible, and to me made no sense. But I was not educated to argue the point. LOL
 

LILYLARUE

Boxer Insane
Just goes to show, that even some AKC Show Breeders have no idea about properly researching breeding, genetics and general "to better the breed" morals. Scary ain't it?
 

redneckemt

Boxer Pal
Thanks ya'll. I figured that it could be the result of a crossbreeding from way back to cause the blue/gray color. But who am I to argue with anyone. I just LOVE the breed and of course my Riley!
 
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