Biting and growling

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Lovely Layla

Boxer Pal
I recently brought home my 9-week-old boxer puppy. The first night she was great, she cried for about 5 minutes after I put her in her crate. Ever since the first night I have been going out of my mind. She loves to play and when she is playing she bites hard. One night she bit my son’s arm and broke skin. He was very upset and is afraid to play with her. I know she is only a puppy but when she wants to play with me she chases my feet and bites my toes and growling very nasty. This is my second boxer and I don’t want to compare and she is only a puppy. I read all the threads about biting and what to do, yelp and ignore her, it does not work. I want to be consistent so please help. I have a baby coming in 2 months and I am worried. She is also not adapting to her crate very well. The only thing I can’t complain about she goes outside, I am all over her about that. Please help.
 

Krikkit

Boxer Insane
As you have a young child, and a baby on the way, I'd really recommend that your purchase the video 'Biting' by Ian Dunbar. It is an excellent resource, especially if you are living with dogs and children :)

Details at: http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB592

Remember to be a little patient - it takes longer than a few days, or even a couple of weeks for any behavioural work you are doing to really take effect. Just be ultra consistant, have a clear set of guidelines, and stick with it.

You may like to look through the Boxers and Children forum as well as reading as many previous threads about puppy biting as you can.

Good luck - things to get better with time and patience and consistancy :)

Sharon
 

Lovely Layla

Boxer Pal
I am going nuts, Yesterday I took Lola to my stepdaughters softball game and she was in one of her moods (playing moods) and anyone that came over to pet her she would bite. They would pull away as though she was hurting them. I told them she's a nipper don't put your hands in her mouth. I was very upset because even when I was holding her she was biting my hands (hard) and trying to jump out of my arms. This morning she was chasing my feet and bit my toe. I might be a little emotional because I am 8 months pregnant, I sat on the couch and started crying. She came over and started jumping up and trying to bit me and I sad "NO Biting” and she crawled behind my leg and lied down. When she is tired she is the sweetest thing. I can kiss her all over and she won't snip at me she licks me. I just don't know what is the best way to get her out of this biting and growling stage
 

King Tut

Boxer Pal
Sounds like our Banner when he was younger. (ha, he is still only 10 months old) We had a terrible time with his bite inhibition he was always nipping, biting and chasing pant legs. Like you nothing seemed to work. We tried the "ouch" thing, the ingnoring him thing and "No Bite" none of it worked. I read in a book that rope tug toys contribute to dogs chasing pantlegs, don't know why, but apparently they can't tell the difference. That toy immediately went away and things improved with the pant legs issue.

Still the biting was a problem...we then had a couple of private obedience lessons, before the full classes started and that's when we found the miracle of a penny can. Basically any tin can will do with anything metalic in it (pennies, quarters, nuts, bolts...) Anytime Banner did something undesireable like biting or jumping we would shake the can and tell him "NO". The sound startles him so he stops with the behavior. Now he's only 10 months old and he has bite inhibition (won't bite hard, if at all) and doesn't jump on guests, doesn't beg at the dinner table etc... He also went through 16 weeks of obedience wich helped tremendously.

I would have to say that the biting issue was the most frustrating problem for us, and I broke down on more than one occassion and was not 8 months pregnant. It is just very frustrating. The penny can really worked for us, hopefully it will work for you.

Good luck to you, I am no obedience expert but this is what saved us from going crazy, hope it helps you.

PS - I have not seen any bad effects from using the penny can. I was worried at first about startling banner soo much, but he still seems ok. No nervousness etc. Oh yeah, remember to go crazy with praise when your pup does something good. We rarely even need the can anymore he is growing into a good dog!
 

Spucks

Boxer Pal
Hi, I had to write. What you have just described is exactly like my (almost) 11 week old Zoe. She is a terrible biter too. She likes to bite me and my youngest son. Chases pantlegs, bites toes and feet and talks back when she is told "No". I have just about given up on the " No bite" and "Walking Away" bit because so far it has not worked. We have had Zoe since she was about 8 weeks old and the bite's are getting harder all the time, and she has made us bleed a few times now. I am going to go fill up a penny can right now and give that a whirl starting today. I really, really hope this works. We are starting our doggy class in mid June so it would be nice if I could get her to stop biting now. So thank you for writing I feel better Knowing that it's not just Zoe having this problem. I was starting to wonder if she was going to be a mean dog.

Bad lil' Zoe's mommy
Erin
 

Krikkit

Boxer Insane
Something you may want want to think about - are your providing enough leadership to your pup, and being ultra consistant in your expectations of the pup? Or are they allowed to run riot? It might help to draw up a list of 'rules for puppy' and put them in places around the house so everyone can do the same things and allow or disallow certain things with the pup.

Another thing to think about - are your expectations too high? Remember that you are dealing with babies functioning under full puppy licence at the moment. Young dogs come hardwired to bite and play fight, it is the only way they can learn to control the only weapon of defence they have - their mouth and teeth.

Here is a good article:
The Puppy and the Young Dog - About Growing Up by Turid Rugaas

Another look at bite inhibition:
Bite Inhibition - by Shirley Chong

My personal preference for a pup is one that bites hard and bites often - you get a million opportunities to teach them outstanding bite inhibition :)

Here are articles by Dunbar and Donaldson on why pups bite:

Extract from the book "Culture Clash " by Jean Donaldson

"Dogs are animals who are able to kill, tear apart carcasses and crack bone with their jaws. They are also highly social. IF they are to live among others with this kind of weaponry as standard issue, they need some means of preventing serious injury to each other during altercations. This is where ritualization comes in. A key ingredient to ritualized aggression is bite inhibition. Dogs are not born with soft mouths, but they are wired up to easily acquire the ability to bite softly, if conditions are right. The right conditions means: plenty of feedback about bite strength. To ensure that puppies get plenty of feedback about bite strength, nature has made puppies into veritable biting machines with needle-like teeth. Normal puppies can and should play-bite continually in social interactions. Play is an extremely interesting behavior. In encompasses rehearsal, bonding, opportunities for feedback and sheer fun. Of high concern to dog owners is the fact that puppies are removed from their litters early in life and often placed in a relative social vacuum. This is greatly compounded if the puppy is forbidden from play-biting its owners.

Supressing puppy biting too early means the puppy doesn't get the repeated doses of feedback on his jaw strength; the puppy grows up with a hard mouth. This is a serious squandering of a critical line of defense against dog bites.

So, smart puppy owners allow some puppy biting in order to give the puppy information on his own strength. Puppy biting is such a valuable thing, in fact, that puppies who do not play bite should be actively encouraged to do so in order to develop a soft mouth. Start off by targeting harder bites. Let the puppy chomp away on your hands, and monitor the level of pressure. Although puppy teeth are sharp, puppy jaws are undeveloped, so this will not be unbearable. As soon as the puppy bears down a little harder, screech "OUCH!" as though it hurt much more than it did, look at the puppy like he's a little ax-murderer and leve the room for a minute or two. This time-out is a clear refusal to play consequence with the "OUCH!" as the condititoned stimulus. Many puppies also have an innate understanding of the screech, making the system work even better. After the minute or two has passed, return and resume play. He may be more prudent temporarily and he may not. Be prepared to repeat this procedure over and over, so the trend emerges. Puppy learns that if puppy bites too hard, puppy plays by himself."

Dunbar also offers some good thoughts on this:

Puppy Biting - More Than Bad Manners
by Ian Dunbar PhD, MSVC


Puppies bite and thank goodness they do! Puppy biting is essential for your puppy to develop a soft mouth. Puppy biting seldom causes appreciable harm, but many bites are painful and elicit reaction. The pup learns, its jaws can hurt and therefore, begins to inhibit the force of its biting before it acquires the formidable teeth and strong jaws of an adolescent.

Completely curtailing puppy biting may offer immediate relief, but the puppy will not have sufficient opportunity to learn that its jaws may inflict pain. Consequently, if ever provoked as an adult, the resultant bite is likely to be a hard one, Certainly puppy biting must be controlled but only in a progressive and systematic manner, whereby the pup is first taught to inhibit the force of its bites, before puppy biting is forbidden altogether. Once the puppy develops a soft mouth, there is plenty of time to inhibit the frequency of its now gentler mouthing.

It is not necessary to hurt, frighten, or punish the pup to teach it biting hurts. A simple "Ouch!" is sufficient. If your pup acknowledges the 'ouch' and desists, praise and resume playing, but in a calmer fashion. If your pup ignores the 'ouch', emphasize "OUCH!!" and leave the room. Your puppy has lost its playmate. Return after one or two minutes time-out and make up by having your puppy come, sit and calm down before resuming play.

Once your pup's biting no longer hurts, still pretend it does. Greet harder nips with a yelp of pseudo-pain. Your puppy will soon to get the idea, "Whooahh! These humans are super-sensitive. I'll have to be much more gentle." The pressure of your puppy's bites will progressively decrease until biting becomes mouthing, or slobbering.
NEVER allow your puppy to mouth human hair or clothing. Hair and clothing can feel neither pressure nor pain. Consequently, allowing a pup to mouth hair, scarves, shoe laces, or gloved hands etc., inadvertently trains the pup to bite harder, extremely dose to human flesh!

Once your pup exerts no pressure whatsoever when mouthing, then and only then, teach the pup to reduce the frequency of mouthing. Teach the meaning of "Off" by hand feeding kibble (see the SIRIUS Puppy Training video), so your pup may learn gentle mouthing is OK, but it must stop the instant you say "Off" At this stage, your puppy should never be allowed to initiate mouthing (unless requested to do so). Please refer to our Preventing Aggression booklet for a detailed description of the essential rules for bite inhibition exercises such as play-fighting and tug o'war.

By way of encouragement though, mouthing-maniac puppies generally develop exceedingly gentle jaws as adults, since their many painful bites have elicited ample appropriate feedback. On the other hand, puppies which seldom play and roughhouse with other dogs, puppies which seldom bite their owners (e.g., shy, or fearful pups), and/or breeds which have been bred to have soft mouths, may not receive sufficient feedback concerning the power of their jaws. This is the major reason puppy class instructors go to great lengths to encourage shy and standoffish dogs to play in class. Should a dog ever bite as an adult, both the prognosis for rehabilitation and the fate of the dog are almost always decided by the severity of the injury, which is predetermined by the level of bite inhibition the dog learned during puppy hood. The most important survival lesson for a puppy to learn is: Bites cause pain ! And of course, the pup can only learn this lesson, if it bites, and if the bitee gives appropriate feedback.

Another article of interest that offers another view on coping with puppy biting:
Insights Into Puppy Mouthing
 

Spucks

Boxer Pal
Thank-you
I will check these sites out and posting the rules for the puppy is a very good idea since the kids and the puppy keep forgeting the rules.
 

tucksmom

Boxer Pal
question-

I've been going through very similar things with my pup. He's quite cuddly and sweet when he's tired, and he can play nice. We say "ouch" in a high pitched voice and he pulls back when he bites too hard(usually) but sometimes he sounds just evil...but his tail will be wagging. I've never seen a puppy look so aggressive. We're consistant with him and are following all the "rules" we've read, but I need reassurance that this is a puppy thing and that he's initiating play. We stand up, turn around, and ignore him when he plays rough so he loses his "playmate". If he's really bad he goes into the "penalty box" which is an area where he can see us, but cannot play with us. It's just an extra crate that we have, not his sleeping and relaxing crate. We have him there for about 2 minutes then we let him out and are calm and gentle. Often though, he goes right back to it. Sometimes though, especially about ten minutes before he passes out for about three hours, he gets this biting and growling attitude. It's good to read that other people have similar issues, but I'm scared that his issues are "worse" or something. I'm being a very nervous mom!! He did just get over a little respiratory illness so I don't know if he was just not feeling well..but he's feeling better now I think. We will be starting puppy Kindergarten soon, but like I said, I empathize with the issue and need a shoulder:( We LOVE him sooooo much, but I've never had this happen before. He has no food aggression or problems with other dogs (he had a great playdate with a chocolate lab that was a little older) and is always happy to meet new people, it's just this severe growling thing. He's not just barking at a toy or anything...he really sounds scary. Help!
 

Krikkit

Boxer Insane
Is this your first Boxer puppy? Keep in mind that generally Boxers are extremely vocal in play - if you are not used to it it can be mistaken for more than just play. When my lot play the sound can be horrendous :D One of the reasons Boxer pups seem to get plenty of 'time outs' in pre-school classes is the sheer amount of noise they make :rolleyes: They just love rough and noisey play.

It's probably nothing to worry about. Have you got anyone nearby with true experience with Boxers (and Boxer pups) to have a listen to him in play?

Sharon
 
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