Barf

[susan fulcher]

Thanks Michelle. When i feed my guys and see how they are excited about every meal I COULD NEVER go back to kibble.sometimes I forget to defrost or bring food home and I open my cup borads and fridge and find something but never ever dog food. They are healthy and most important HAPPY!!!!

 

[JulieM]

Susan (Spotty's mom) -

I'd be interested in hearing about what other scientific research into a raw diet has been done - the Purina funded one is the only one I'm aware of.

As for bacteria - certainly they are risky for humans but a dog's digestive tract is far different than a persons, that's why they can eat garbage or dead things and usually have little or no ill effects....

No one diet is right for every dog, but a balanced raw diet is not as hard as you might think. If you will not feed a raw or homecooked diet, then a high-quality kibble is the best option. If that's what you're comfortable with, that's what you're comfortable with.

I, too, do not believe in jumping on bandwagons (if I did, I'd be feeding kibble, vaccinating yearly, and giving heartworm preventives!) However, I do not think you (or anyone) can honestly and accurately deny the merits of a raw diet until you have tried it and seen what effects it has on your dogs.

The "which food is best" debate is a never-ending and often heated one, and there are no right or wrong answers. All we can hope to do is share information, and let people make their own decisions.

 

[michellekearley]

Update on Baxter and Jake

Dear BARFers

I just wanted to give you an update on Baxter and Jake's progress with BARF!

I COULD NEVER go back to kibble

This is true for me also!!! I have only been feeding the dogs raw a little less than a week and already I have seen major improvements. Their coats are absolutely beautiful (and shiny) and Baxter no longer has horrible breath. I have always thought of Boxers as ...........excuse me for this .............SHIT FACTORIES however, since BARFing they really don't have as much waste to dispose of. I LOVE IT!!!

The only problem I am having with Baxter now is that he wants his RMB's and then leaves his vegie mush (eating it the next morning). I usually poor the vegie mix over the RMB's but what I am going to try tonight is giving him his vegie mush first (because he will be really hungry) and then let his have his carcass etc.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Spotty's people]

Thanks, Jan....

I'd be interested in hearing about what other scientific research into a raw diet has been done - the Purina funded one is the only one I'm aware of.

That's just it, Jan. I don't think that enough has been done. Yet. I hope that more is done, & I would like to hear the results. Of double blind tests, on dogs fed on different kinds of food, right from puppyhood. But I really doubt that anyone will pay for that, right? Dang.

As for bacteria - certainly they are risky for humans

That's just what I meant in being cautious. Not for the dog. Man, my boy will eat anything! As will most dogs... no, it is not them that I would worry about, it is just than many humans become sick from poor handling of food in the home. The great majority probably think that they have a "24 hour flu" when they really have a mild case of food poisoning. It would be children & elderly in the home that I would be concerned about. Or those with immuno deficiencies.

and giving heartworm preventives!)

Up here, it is considered necessary during the summer, as the mosquitoes can be bad some years, and a lot of them are transmitting heartworm to dogs. Perhaps it depends on the area that you are in. We have the problem. We deal with it. To the better health of our pet.

!) However, I do not think you (or anyone) can honestly and accurately deny the merits of a raw diet until you have tried it and seen what effects it has on your dogs.

Sorry, I just won't. For all the previously stated reasons. Case closed. I believe that I have found an alternative to the run of the mill store bought food that will give my dog the best chances he will ever have, considering that I do not know his breeding, his previous life, and anything else I would really love to know.

let people make their own decisions.

Please, do. I was glad to read Susan F's account of how her dog's health improved so much. Good for her. I do have to wonder, though, if there may be hereditary problems there?

If some of you can forgive me just this one last comment. I (having been raised in a very religious family) get quite uptight when someone's idea gets carried with a religious fervor, that still may require some scientific proof. Sometimes it APPEARS that is what is happening (i.e. an idea getting carried along with a religious fervor). Perhaps it is just the problem with not being able to speak in person & here we are, typing in responses to what we THINK a person is implying.

BUT. THAT SAID: I still think that all of you that think that this diet is the best for you and your dogs..... GO FOR IT. I have seen pics of some of your dogs, & yes, they look very healthy! I think that my dog would have to eat a TON to look so good! Also, up here, vegetables aren't so cheap in the wintertime, & depending on the exchange rate (as a lot of our produce comes from the U.S. in the winter), can be almost impossible to purchase for human consumption! Not cheap!

My dog has very few problems eating. He would love to eat all day. He loves his new kibble.... But, I realize that not every dog is the same. We do what we can for them.

Okay. Now you had me go on & on & on. THIS is why I abstained from the last few threads that I read on BARFing. Perhaps I'll stay away from these threads for awhile. My teeth hurt from gritting them!!!!! :D

Yours in good doggie health... all the best for them.... whatever road that may be.....
Susan

 

[JulieM]

Susan, there's no reason to abstain from these discussions - you have a valid opinion and you are not trying to dissuade anyone from feeding what they choose, only offering alternate viewpoints. That's how people are able to make informed decisions

I am fairly certain that scientific, in-depth, objective studies on raw diets will never be done. The pet food companies won't pay for them, and the raw food people don't have the money! However, there are thousands of people with anecdotal evidence of how a raw diet has improved the health of their dogs. I, luckily, did not have any major health problems when I switched to raw, but severe allergies in my foundation bitch, so much so that her feet were bright red and raw, and she was missing most of the hair on her head and back. Within a month of switching to raw her hair had grown back in excellent condition, and her feet were a nice shiny white That's all the evidence I need. And I did not make this decision lightly - I researched a raw diet for two years before I got up enough courage to actually feed it. There are a lot of people who do hop on the raw bandwagon, and most people who feed raw try to dissuade them from this. A raw diet improperly fed can be worse than kibble, and a lot of people don't realize that.

Yes, there are bacteria concerns for people, raw dog meats should be handled in the same way as pre-cooked people meats.

As for the heartworm preventives - in BC, you probably don't need it nearly as often as you think. In the interests of sharing information....

According to the American Heartworm Society (www.heartwormsociety.org),

A climate that provides adequate temperature and humidity to support a viable mosquito population, and also sustain sufficient heat to allow maturation of ingested microfilariae to the infective (3rd) larval stage within the intermediate host is a pivotal prerequisite for there to be heartworm transmission. Laboratory studies indicate that maturation requires the equivalent of an average daily temperature in excess of 64° F (18° C) be sustained for approximately one month . Furthermore, intermittent declines in temperature below the developmental threshold of 57° F (14° C) for a few hours retard maturation, even when the average daily temperature supports continued development.

In Kelowna, which I gather is near Okanagan Valley, the temperature at 5:00 this morning was 48° F - so no worry of heartworm transmission for at least 30 days from today

And while I agree that some raw feeders to get a bit fanatic about it, I find it ironic that you mention religion, since as far as I know there's no scientific proof for any of that, either

Again, Susan, I am not trying to persuade you to feed a raw diet at all - only giving you information I have that doesn't agree with information you have, so that we might come to a more complete understanding.

 

[Spotty's people]

thanks again, Jan....

You are right about heartworm. We only go on meds for part of the year here. (And, yes, Kelowna is in the heart of the Okanagan Valley... we are about 45 min. south of that... our temps are a tich warmer.... but only a tich! Fruit ripening dates are about 1-2 weeks ahead of Kelowna.)

Even though the temps are starting to drop, we can still get some very warm temperatures into October. We can still get bit by those nasty beasties late in the year. [When we lived near Vancouver, we never bothered with any of this. Just Kennel Cough (as he went to daycare then) & Rabies vaccine.] So, the recommendation for our area is to keep dogs on heartworm meds for the complete summer. And, we have to buy the medication in multiples of 6 (i.e. for 6 months), I believe... I'd like to check into smaller doses, now that I stop to think about that one (thanks for the info.). More of the drug companies making sure that they have a hold on you! haha. I would prefer to only give him medication as required, which, I am sure is not as long as we are. I wonder if we only went for 3 months, if the rest of the doses (3) will last for the next year... hmmm. No. Of course not... the expiration date is the start of next years' round. How typical! I don't care to use a lot of medications on myself, so you can allow that I'm not too inclined to drug up my doggie, either.

But, since we are on Revolution, it also takes care of Mange mites, fleas, & ear mites. (As I'm sure you're aware!) As our dog runs out with other dogs, is out where coyotes, bears & cougars are, & all that, I don't want to have to deal with fleas & such. When we lived in Surrey (near Vancouver), he would on occasion bring home fleas from where we walked & (yuck!) so I know they are out there. Some pretty flea-bitten & mangy looking coyotes out there!

And while I agree that some raw feeders to get a bit fanatic about it, I find it ironic that you mention religion, since as far as I know there's no scientific proof for any of that, either

[Jan, don't let my mommy hear you! She'll come down here and "tich,tich" over my shoulder!!!!! :D :D I try to avoid the whole debate with that (religious) group, too! Ahhh, avoidance, avoidance!]

I don't mind a differing of opinions. Different styles, people, races & religions make the world a more interesting place to live. Open-mindedness is good.

I'd rather not read... or have someone imply that because I don't feed my dog the same way as they do that I love my dog less. (See Michelle's energetic reply to Susan.) (My family thinks I'm a wee bit nuts about him.) I am willing to pay as much as I am for very good quality, "holistic" diet, because I want to. Not everyone can afford that. Not everyone will go to a raw diet, for whatever reasons they have. Whatever route each of us chooses, I don't think that we should make others feel guilty about not choosing the same.

I really should stop now. I am actually waaaay more interested in behaviour issues than health issues.... (perhaps another reason that I go for the convenience food? hmmmm, and yet I will spent forever trying to understand a behaviour, etc.....and yes, I believe that health & behaviour are related....whole other topic.)

So, I will agree to disagree with raw feeders, like many others. But I had to answer the question:

I notice that a lot of people are reading this thread but are not replying. Is this because you do not feed a BARF diet??

And, to do so: yup, perhaps because some are not interested in getting into this diet but are curious, maybe some don't want to be drawn into a debate, or how about the ones who are looking for a good argument to break out!! haha! Hey, we know you're out there! The ambulance chasers! :D

gonna go find a different thread to butt into.
Chow, raw feeders!
Susan

 

[michellekearley]

Also, I have a hard enough time providing the two of us humans with a well-balanced menu, let alone thinking about the dog! I am trying to find the best "convenience" kibble that I can, (even if it will cost more) & will stick with that decision. Needless to say, Spotty gets lots of veggy "bonuses" after we eat. (He doesn't care for raw, though... and I won't bring out the blender just for him!!! awwww , poor dog, eh?) I am likely to bet that the little bits that he gets are just filler for him. But he likes it, & I think he thinks he's special getting it! haha

Susan (Spotty) response

I'd rather not read... or have someone imply that because I don't feed my dog the same way as they do that I love my dog less. (See Michelle's energetic reply to Susan.)

Susan (Spotty) response

People make excuses such as it is too expensive (which it is not) or too time consuming (does not have to be) etc etc but if these same people really love their dogs they should not be making any of these excuses and give their dogs the best food available. I don't know about everyone else here but you should look after your dogs the way you would look after your own skin children!!!!

Michelle's response to Susan Fulcher like you suggested, however it was referring to Susan (Spotty)comments!!

Susan (Spotty) I am not implying that you do not love your dog however, I AM pointing out that from what you previously posted (see above quotes) to me, it seems that you think feeding raw would be **too hard** rather than the fact that you think it is dangerous. What are the *real* reasons???? Why the agressiveness???? Nobody is forcing anything on to you.

What do you mean about religion??? I fail to see how this relates!! Is it a meat thing? Please explain!

Also why are you calling Julie Jan???????? :confused: :confused:

 

[Spotty's people]

Michelle.

1. Sorry, got the names mixed up. Meant JulieM, not Jan.

2.

seems that you think feeding raw would be **too hard** rather than the fact that you think it is dangerous. What are the *real* reasons????

For my life situation, it IS too difficult. I don't care to elaborate, thank you. I also think that it is too dangerous. Perhaps not for my dog, but for people & bacterial contamination. That is my opinion & I will stick with it. What other "real" reasons should I have?

3.

Michelle's response to Susan Fulcher like you suggested, however it was referring to Susan (Spotty)comments!!

Sorry, what? Are you referring to:

People make excuses such as it is too expensive (which it is not) or too time consuming (does not have to be) etc etc but if these same people really love their dogs they should not be making any of these excuses and give their dogs the best food available. I don't know about everyone else here but you should look after your dogs the way you would look after your own skin children!!!!

(which was the quote that I was referring to. (Too many Susan's here?) If you were referring to me in that post, I am afraid to say that I take offense to that comment. I LOVE MY DOG LIKE NO OTHER. BUT, if you were referring to good feed (I mean super-dooper good dry stuff too), then I would only say that some people may not be able to afford to spend a lot on dog feed. Some people do have a hard time feeding/clothing their kids, too. (I'm sure that you are aware, though, and don't need to be told that.)

4.

Why the agressiveness???? Nobody is forcing anything on to you.

I don't think that I am being "aggressive". I think that I was trying to be quite light in my postings.... I am quite aware that on these boards, very little forcing goes on. Anyway, I am not one who is easily swayed by other's opinions, I will form my own opinions. I really am impressed especially by Julie's insight on so many issues, but she and I will continue to disagree on this raw meat thing... raw veggies are good. But it does not mean that we cannot respect each other's position. She is well-informed, is obviously careful about the information she gives out, & can respect another's opinion. I respect hers. I don't have to agree!

5.

What do you mean about religion??? I fail to see how this relates!! Is it a meat thing? Please explain!

A MEAT thing? I don't understand ???? My dog, hubby & I are all omnivores. I even had a rabbit once that liked meat. Cooked & Raw! Religion has nothing to do with it.
I was referring to the enthusiasm displayed by some people who do things differently than some. It was meant to be a descriptive term only. (Which is why I added the qualifier that "I grew up in a very religious family"... I am not involved any more, btw.) I did not mean to step on any toes.

So, again... why was I one of the ones not responding before? Just because of this kind of debate. It gets waaaaay too tiring. It has been said in the past that one of the best ways to be misunderstood in a conversation is to try to have one over the telephone. Now, I think that has to be adjusted to internet conversations. I think that it is much easier to be misunderstood than over a phone line.

Good luck.

 

[michellekearley]

Dear Susan (Spotty)

I do respect your opinion and if I offended you I am truly sorry. I think that this thread has just been misinterpreted so again I am sorry. I also did not want to get into a debate so let this be a lesson to me!!!!

I did not mean for one second that you do not love your dogs (it is evidence enough that you are on this sight).

Again I am sorry

 

[Spotty's people]

Thank you, Michelle

No offence taken.
I hope that your doggies remain the apple of your eye, & that they remain healthy & strong on your new found diet! Keep on doing what works for you.
In another thread, I've described (in a small way) the new diet (kibble) that we are "testing" on Spotty. I will be letting "the board" know if I find it good for us, or not. I am testing one large bag (should take a month or more). It is supposed to be one of the best dry kibbles around our area, & so far, the dog loves it without putting in "bonuses" in to make him eat.

Susan