30 minute down? (puppy obedience)

[MarleysMom]

If anyone is looking for positive reinforcement puppy and dog training, go and check out your local Humane Society. I have been taking my 10 week old Marley to the Goodpuppy class, which is for ages 7 weeks - 13 weeks. I have been utterly impressed, to say the least. In our class, there are 10 puppies with about 30 owners/family members and 4-5 trainers. In the first week, we were taught the "Quiet Hold" which is simply cradling your baby in your arms and holding him there. If he resists, we are supposed to just hold on and look the other way. The trainer told us not to expect the puppy to stay quiet for more a minute or so.
I was also told that by using the Gentle Leader, that will help establish pack order, too. From what I understand, with the way the Gentle Leader puts pressure under the jowels and on top of the neck, it mimics the way a mother, or pack leader would show their dominance or correction over the puppy in the wild. Has anybody had luck with this?

 

[Shadrap]

I'm sorry, but I am shocked and horrified by what I have just read. In my opinion, this verges on animal abuse. If it were me, I would change trainers.

I feel that this excersise is one designed purely to breakdown the pup and thereby force it into complying with correct "dog behaviour for humans". What about humans aquiring correct "human behaviour for dogs"?? See the difference?

Since reading this, I have discussed this point with several people, including 2 trainers, and it seems that the only time that this MIGHT be justified, is when there is a particular problem regads to dominance that no other method will help. In other words, the last try before the dog is put down.

I believe in positive association with everything that I ask my dog to do. Her training is fun and the minute either she or I stop having fun, it's time to reassess.

If my strong views on this have offended anyone, I apologise for offending, but not for what I have said.

 

[Renee&Jake]

I don't agree with the method your trainer uses, or why, or the idea of a puppy 8 weeks old started AT 30 minutes (as opposed to say one minute at a time and work up), but a 30 minute down for an adult dog is not the worst thing to expect of them.

The first time I saw this laid out was in "The Complete Dog Training Manual" published by the ASPCA, written by Bruce Fogle, and it was a 20 minute down stay.

I guess I see it as similiar to a dog going to it's 'spot' while you eat dinner, or maybe when company is over, or maybe when you are somewhere with your dog that would be unexpected and it comes in handy. Many people use something similiar, such as 'Go lay down" and a dog would go to his bed and chill out. Some people use a crate to simulate this same situation, and sometimes, you don't have a crate.

It has no place in puppy kindergarten (at a full 30 minutes), but a nice thing for an adult dog to be able to do. When my husband and I test drove a new truck, Jakob was along (to make sure he'd be comfy in the back of the cab) and it was nice to be in the dealership, filling out paperwork, talking to the financier, waiting for the truck to be ready, and there's Jakob, laying at my feet, relaxing and being patient. He was a big hit at the dealership, and many people stopped by to pet him and ask Boxer questions, and it was nice to have him hang out (for an hour) without having to remind him down every two minutes when someone came by to pet him.

Add words like 'dominance' and 'alpha' and it become kinda ugly, but it doesn't have to be.

 

[shannonmac]

Originally posted by MarleysMom
In the first week, we were taught the "Quiet Hold" which is simply cradling your baby in your arms and holding him there. If he resists, we are supposed to just hold on and look the other way. The trainer told us not to expect the puppy to stay quiet for more a minute or so.
I was also told that by using the Gentle Leader, that will help establish pack order, too. From what I understand, with the way the Gentle Leader puts pressure under the jowels and on top of the neck, it mimics the way a mother, or pack leader would show their dominance or correction over the puppy in the wild. Has anybody had luck with this?

i have tried the quiet hold a few times...kneesaa actually really seems to like it...she feels like a little baby...also i have a gentle leader and i think its the best thing ever!!!! i love it...and it really helps walking too!!!

 

[bethanndaniel]

30 minute down

We did the "30 minute down" in our puppy training class and it was very effective. Our boxer Samson is very large and needed to learn the "pecking" order in our house. It may seem unreasonable to hold a 30 minute down at 8 weeks. Try doing it 10 minutes and increase the time each day. The dog will learn and a happy dog is a well trained dog. Boxers want to please there owners so much! It would be a shame not to train them. So just keep at it!

Beth ann

Sir Harley's Judge Samson - classic fawn docked & cropped
Bella - yet to have an official name - flashy brindle docked & yet to be cropped

 

[JulieM]

I fully agree that a 30-minute down for a puppy is way too much to ask. Renee brings up an interesting point, though - it probably is not too much to ask of an adult. I think the difference is the motivation.

Renee, it sounds as if you have taugh Jakob manners and guidelines - never a bad thing Many of the trainers that advocate the *forced* extended down (and we are not talking about a short down, working up to 30 minutes - this is 30 minutes from the get-go) are trying to teach "dominance" or "pack order" or whatever lingo they prefer. They are trying to "show the dog who is boss" and that is a misguided (and often dangerous) concept. It is *so much easier* to show the dog what will work to get it what it wants - be that food, toys, a game, praise, etc.

This is a very good example of how two very different mindsets can be used in teaching one behavior, and have vastly different impacts on your relationship with your dog.

 

[ThatsAlly]

I can't even get my 12 year old to stay in the same place for 30 mins, and she's a very relaxed Newfie not a happy, hyper puppy.

BTW- Gentle Leader, have it, love it - works SO WELL!! When Chase walks ahead of me it makes her head turn towards me and she has to stop, no if ands or buts

 

[oddlou]

30 minutes!! I can't sit still for 30 minutes. That sounds extremely excessive to me for a dog of any age, let alone a puppy.

 

[roxy]

This sounds ridiculous. I'm not sure where you are from but here in Adelaide, South Australia that just wouldn't be done. 30 min stays would only be done at higher levels here. Just getting puppies to drop would be a huge achievement. A few minutes stays would only be required in lower grades and only the higher grades usually after a couple of years would they do longer stays and they would be out of sight stays. This seems way too much to ask of a puppy or even a young dog. - Roxanne:mad:

 

[vaboxer]

Dayla and I did basic obedience training at the beginning of the summer, the class ran about 8 weeks.

The first class we learned a down

The second class we learned a down stay (for as long as you could get them to stay)

The third class we had to do a down stay for 15 minutes

And by the fourth class we had to do it for a half hour.

We were told to gently hold down their shoulders at the beginning to teach them the down...by the fouth class we didnt have to do that because down, stay meant exactly that...and Dayla does it.

Do this day we practice this. She can stay up to 45 minutes...probably even longer if you want her to. I love it personally because if I need to go into the garage or something I can leave the door open and tell her "down, stay" and she will stay there until I return (she used to sneak out with me and get caught out there with no parental supervision).

This, along with "come" was one of my favorite things we learned in class...