training please....

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellababe

Boxer Buddy
Thanks in advance for any advice on this topic....I'm at a loss....

We started and completed puppy training at a local Pet Smart with positive reinforcement and clicker training with moderates success. The trainer there got promoted and left, I was not fond of the replacement and the new schedule didn't work for us. Some time lapsed and we recently found a trainer with a schedule that fits but we have to repeat basic training and it is corrective "pop and release" training with a slip rope. The trainer explained it was for corrective behavior and to get her attention. When working on loose leash walking she told me to stop at a point and ask her to sit, so I did and Stella sat like a good girl but the trainer told me I did it wrong by not popping her then telling her to sit. The next class was heal and if the dog lags behind you are to quickly pull her up to you then release. I felt like I was tugging a pull toy and it seemed like the slip rope never loosened enough. Does any of this make sense? I feel like I am confused and confusing my dog with this type of training. Do we stick with it or go back to all positive or combine the two? please help

thanks again
Maureen
Stella's Mom
Brindle Boxer 9 mos old
 

Gunther

Super Boxer
Welcome aboard and yeah, correcting a dog just becasue is insane! If your working with "anyone" and they are doing something with your dog that you are uncomfortable with ,as your dogs guardian you have every right to remove your dog!

Don't know how good your dogie is on leash. I prefer to train without "tools" myself, this should get you started on loose leash walking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FqtL6o7kDE
 
Last edited:

TwoDogs

Boxer Insane
When working on loose leash walking she told me to stop at a point and ask her to sit, so I did and Stella sat like a good girl but the trainer told me I did it wrong by not popping her then telling her to sit.

If you use leash and collar corrections, you are relying on negative reinforcement (applying something the dog doesn't like and removing it once the dog does the desired behavior) or positive punishment (if the dog does an undesired behavior you apply something the dog doesn't like) so that next time the dog is less likely to do the undesired behavior.

Both rely on the dog not liking the thing you are applying (a sharp collar pop) enough that they will work to avoid it. You are relying on the correction being uncomfortable enough, startling enough, or painful enough that she will try her best to avoid getting one. In my opinion, not the way I want to train my dog.

It sounds like Stella already knew what a "sit" was and was perfectly willing to do it when you asked. Perhaps she had gotten enough of the pops that she did want to avoid another and so willingly complied with your request. If she met your criteria (sat promptly, in correct position and with good form) then there is no logical or sound scientific reason for you to have corrected her. In that particular situation on that particular day you no longer needed to use a correction.

With any training method, you employ a technique to get a desired level of reliability to the behavior. When you think you've reached that reliability you fade the tools of your technique and see if the dog maintains the level of reliability. If they do, you have successfully trained that behavior and you switch to periodic maintenance training. If the reliability isn't where you want it then you evaluate the effectiveness of your technique and either resume using it or switch to a more effective one. Training is a very fluid thing. It's not a cookie-cutter, always do this or that kind of thing.

Think of it from the dog's view. If every sit gets a correction anyway, then what's the point of trying to do it quicker or better. In applied behavior analysis there is a term called the Differential Punishment Procedure. This refers to punishing one set of responses and withholding punishment of another set of responses. In this case it would be punishing non-sits and withholding punishment for sits. It is through this contrast that the dog learns what it precisely needs to do to avoid a correction. If your training method is to use techniques that rely on the dog's desire to avoid a correction but you correct the dog before they have a chance to comply or correct them regardless of whether they perform as desired, then you are inflicting needless discomfort on the dog.

BTW, there is also a Differential Reinforcement Procedure. Studies (of dogs, rats, humans, chickens, and countless other animals) have shown that using positive reinforcement and differential reinforcement of behaviors results in learners achieving levels of reliability that are just as high as those trained through punishment. Not surprisingly though, the ones trained with reward-based training are much happier learners who exhibit less physical and mental stress during training.

Your trainer is using old-fashioned, out-dated methods. Find a trainer that utilizes primarily positive reinforcement, reward-based training methods. You and Stella will BOTH enjoy the training so much more.
 

Stellababe

Boxer Buddy
training

Thanks Gunther for the video it's great information. We have broken up with our trainer. I didn't feel comfortable with the correcting for no reason and then after I did tug her and said sit she looked at me like I was crazy and stood there. She walks really well on a leash for the most part...now that the weather is getting warmer more kids are out and she is starting to pull again where at the end of last summer she would jump like a kangaroo but still move forward without pulling. The only other time she pulls like mad is when we're walking to the gate at the dog park to enter...but we're working on that too. I just want her to be safe first and foremost. I have to say I am extremely lucky and grateful that she is such a good dog in general, ( I could go on and on about all her fun qualities and things she's mastered) she can be a little miss sassy pants on occasion but that's to be expected from a Boxer...so I've been told. :0)

thanks again so very much for the info and feed back...
Maureen
 

Gunther

Super Boxer
Thanks Gunther for the video it's great information. We have broken up with our trainer. I didn't feel comfortable with the correcting for no reason and then after I did tug her and said sit she looked at me like I was crazy and stood there. She walks really well on a leash for the most part...now that the weather is getting warmer more kids are out and she is starting to pull again where at the end of last summer she would jump like a kangaroo but still move forward without pulling. The only other time she pulls like mad is when we're walking to the gate at the dog park to enter...but we're working on that too. I just want her to be safe first and foremost. I have to say I am extremely lucky and grateful that she is such a good dog in general, ( I could go on and on about all her fun qualities and things she's mastered) she can be a little miss sassy pants on occasion but that's to be expected from a Boxer...so I've been told. :0)

thanks again so very much for the info and feed back...
Maureen
Ugh not to be a wet blanket but if my main concern was keeping my dog safe..a dog park is the last place I would go!

Look up Leerburgh "why dog parks are a bad idea" my guys were all taught to ignore other dogs, they were never allowed to run around with a pack of dogs out of my control. No "I thought my dog was friendly folks???" Never had a bad encounter causing a problem I had to fix.

My guys don't have problems, I contribute that mostly to what I did not do, rather than to what I did do! :)
 

Stellababe

Boxer Buddy
training

"It sounds like Stella already knew what a "sit" was and was perfectly willing to do it when you asked. Perhaps she had gotten enough of the pops that she did want to avoid another and so willingly complied with your request."

...."Training is a very fluid thing. It's not a cookie-cutter, always do this or that kind of thing."

TwoDogs,

Thanks so very much for taking the time to respond to my cry for help. While I understand the method itself I was confused and torn if it was the right way for me and my Boxer...and it's not. I think in my head I wanted it to be more of a "tug" or like a tap on a shoulder to get her attention so she would obey, sounds silly I'm sure.

She had NEVER been popped prior to the trainer telling me I was wrong when I didn't do it prior to the command of sit. We have broken up with that trainer. While it may work for some, I figure I didn't start that way so why go there. Stella listens for the most part and I continue to work with her everyday on many aspects. Sit, stay, down are all at about 99%. Positive reinforcement like treats, praise and play seem to be working for us.

We're getting better everyday at recall, even at the dog park she is coming when called!! :0) I just want to be able to keep her safe first and foremost while keeping her as happy and fun loving as she is.

And thanks for reminding me that training should be a fluid thing, changing things up, keeping what works and tweaking what doesn't. I think I need to print all that out and keep it pinned to the door.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond, it was very helpful.
Maureen
 

Stellababe

Boxer Buddy
training

Gunther,

You're not being a wet blanket. I've never had a pet before let alone a dog so any information is welcome and appreciated. I have the one boxer and was told that it was very important to get her socialized to other dogs early on. At the time I knew no-one with dogs and have a weird schedule. Basic puppy class helped with that while we did it and the park was recommended by someone I work with. At the park she has been playing with pretty much the same group of pups/dogs and the owners are all very attentive keeping a close eye. That's not to say there never is a problem there, when things get busy (crowded or rowdy) we're out.

I'm now just starting to arrange "play dates" with people I know who have dogs and have been getting her to doggy daycare at least once a week for controlled play.
 

Gunther

Super Boxer
Gunther,

You're not being a wet blanket. I've never had a pet before let alone a dog so any information is welcome and appreciated. I have the one boxer and was told that it was very important to get her socialized to other dogs early on. At the time I knew no-one with dogs and have a weird schedule. Basic puppy class helped with that while we did it and the park was recommended by someone I work with. At the park she has been playing with pretty much the same group of pups/dogs and the owners are all very attentive keeping a close eye. That's not to say there never is a problem there, when things get busy (crowded or rowdy) we're out.

I'm now just starting to arrange "play dates" with people I know who have dogs and have been getting her to doggy daycare at least once a week for controlled play.
And that is the best way to do doggy play dates!

Keep and eye out on the doggy day care always ask questions about how your dog is doing! Or better still drop in unannounced! Wouldn't hurt to ask them how they deal with Dominate dogs either. :)

Balanced dogs and balanced dog owners is the way to go if you must! Now just stay away from "I thought my dog was friendly folks??? " and you guys will be fine. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top